2 edits
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeI get the omnipresent angle, but if we are to understand hell in a metaphorical sense, and not as a literal location where God would exist de facto as a result of his omnipresence, then hell simply becomes a place where God is 'not present'. In other words, the only place in existence where an omnipresent God does not exist,.....is non-existence. (Oblivion, if you like).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand what you mean.
I would first tender Daniel 12:2 as an example or hint of such a state of non-existence:
"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."
Would you consider that those re-created after being non-existent are the same people ?
1.) They lived.
2.) They completely ceased to exist.
3.) God creates them again.
A continuity has been interrupted.
So you consider if God creates them again they are the same people ?
Note how some 'will not' awake from the dust in the ground to experience everlasting life, but only everlasting contempt.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not sure what you are getting at.
The wording means to me that both groups awake from the SAME place.
"And many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the ground will awake, some to life eternal and some to reproach and eternal contempt." (Dan. 12:2)
I understand Daniel's prophecy to mean:
A.) Many will awake from one state.
B.) Some of this many awake to one destiny and some of this many awake to another destiny.
The place from which they "awake" is the same.
The destinies to which they are assigned differ.
I would ask you:
If those who awake to reproach and eternal contempt are assigned to an oblivion of non-existence, would you then say that before any person is created he is in reproach and contempt ?
And again in Revelation 20:5 we have, "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended..."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I ask you sonship, was God, as a result of His omnipresence, 'with' the 'rest of the dead' as they lay in their graves for 1000 years, before coming back to life? - Or are we seeing what hell itself will be like, not a 1000 years of absence from God, but an eternity?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think Psalm 139 implies that in some sense God is there in Sheol. Or at least His eyes see what is going on there.
Ie.
" Sheol is naked before Him, and Abaddon has no covering." (Job 25:6)
I don't think Revelation means this:
1.) People lived.
2.) Those people became altogether non-existent in oblivion.
3.) God creates new people just like those or considers them the same people.
4.) They have judgment pronounced upon them.
5.) They again become altogether non-existent in oblivion.
Why could not those people created complain and say " I am not the same person that you previously created. I am a completely new and different person."
Why could they not make that argument ?
Originally posted by @sonshipWill come back to this post later today, but in the meantime will ask you to consider if a loving and just deity would bring people back from oblivion merely to judge and punish them?
[b] I get the omnipresent angle, but if we are to understand hell in a metaphorical sense, and not as a literal location where God would exist de facto as a result of his omnipresence, then hell simply becomes a place where God is 'not present'. In other words, the only place in existence where an omnipresent God does not exist,.....is non-existence. (Obliv ...[text shortened]... m a completely new and different person."
Why could they not make that argument ?
- Joined
- 01 Oct 04
- Moves
- 12095
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeIn the meantime I will ask you to consider whether a deity is just if He just lets people get off the hook scot free?
Will come back to this post later today, but in the meantime will ask you to consider if a loving and just deity would bring people back from oblivion merely to judge and punish them?
2 edits
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeIt is strange to me that you ask of me this question. If I understand your posts, it is you who are saying that the realm of physical death is oblivion of non-existence. I am just logically applying YOUR theory to what the Bible tells us.
Will come back to this post later today, but in the meantime will ask you to consider if a loving and just deity would bring people back from oblivion merely to judge and punish them?
Since I don't believe that their first death is the oblivion of non-existence, I won't defend what I perceive to be your theory.
However, it is fair to ask me about God resurrecting the dead in Hades to judge them and some of them being sent to the lake of fire. That is fair to ask me. Some asleep in the dust have their immaterial part in Sheol (Hades/Hell). They arise as Daniel predicted in his vision. Some arise to eternal life and others to reproach, to eternal contempt. (See Dan. 12:2).
I'll present some thoughts in another post.
Originally posted by @dj2beckerYou think oblivion is getting off scot free?! 🙄
In the meantime I will ask you to consider whether a deity is just if He just lets people get off the hook scot free?
Originally posted by @sonshipThat is what I was asking you.
However, it is fair to ask me about God resurrecting the dead in Hades to judge them and some of them being sent to the lake of fire. That is fair to ask me. Some asleep in the dust have their immaterial part in Sheol (Hades/Hell). They arise as Daniel predicted in his vision. Some arise to eternal life and others to reproach, to eternal contempt. (See Dan. 12:2).
I'll present some thoughts in another post.[/b]
Originally posted by @sonshipWould you consider that those re-created after being non-existent are the same people?
[b] I get the omnipresent angle, but if we are to understand hell in a metaphorical sense, and not as a literal location where God would exist de facto as a result of his omnipresence, then hell simply becomes a place where God is 'not present'. In other words, the only place in existence where an omnipresent God does not exist,.....is non-existence. (Obliv ...[text shortened]... m a completely new and different person."
Why could they not make that argument ?
Would you consider souls reincarnated as 'the same people?' (A continuity being interrupted by rebirth?)
I am not sure what you are getting at.The wording means to me that both groups awake from the SAME place.
My point was that 'before' they awake they are in a state of non-existence, where even an omnipresent God is not present. If an eternity in the presence of God is 'heaven' then an eternity in a place of non-existence where God is not present would equate as 'hell.' No? - And again, would God awake a soul from such a state simply to condemn them? Is that really the nature of your God?
The logic of your last question evades me.
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeWould you consider souls reincarnated as 'the same people?' (A continuity being interrupted by rebirth?)
[b]Would you consider that those re-created after being non-existent are the same people?
Would you consider souls reincarnated as 'the same people?' (A continuity being interrupted by rebirth?)
I am not sure what you are getting at.The wording means to me that both groups awake from the SAME place.
My point was that 'b ...[text shortened]... ndemn them? Is that really the nature of your God?
The logic of your last question evades me.[/b]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't believe in reincarnation.
My point was that 'before' they awake they are in a state of non-existence, where even an omnipresent God is not present.
-----------------------------------------------------
What I read in the revelation of the Bible shows that the man dead is not non-existent.
Man is of spirit / soul / body. Physical death is a separation of the spirit and soul from the physical body.
Most of what I read in the Bible shows the immaterial part of man still exists as it is separated from the physical body. In the book of Ecclesiastes that dead man is not at all, true. But Ecclesiastes is written from the standpoint of people "under the sun" or our typical experiences from physical life.
Most groups I have seen which want to argue for oblivion of non-existence in death appeal to something written in Ecclesiastes.
Now I have to be swepted away to some non-theological and practical duties. Will continue latter today.
- Joined
- 01 Oct 04
- Moves
- 12095
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeEveryone dies.
You think oblivion is getting off scot free?! 🙄
Originally posted by @sonshipSo, you can't discuss things you don't believe?!
[b] Would you consider souls reincarnated as 'the same people?' (A continuity being interrupted by rebirth?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't believe in reincarnation.
If I followed the same tact I would barely make comment in this forum.
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeI have no further comment on the Hindu belief of reincarnation now.
My point was that 'before' they awake they are in a state of non-existence, where even an omnipresent God is not present.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would say that non-existence has no "where".
Romans 4:17 says that God calls the things not being as being.
" ... God, who gives life to the dead and calls the things not being as being."
Things not being God calls into being.
Things not existing are called into existence by God.
If He were not as the things not being are not, then He could not call them into being.
If an eternity in the presence of God is 'heaven' then an eternity in a place of non-existence where God is not present would equate as 'hell.' No?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I just argued that non-existence is not a place.
Non-existence is not a place where God is not.
God calls things non-existent into existence.
If God were not because something else is not then God could not call that which is non-existent into existence.
This is getting into a semantic issue. And I don't mean disrespect to your concept.
But I am governed more by what the revelation of Scripture says.
[/b] "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Gen 1:1) [/b]
Though the universe was non-existent it did not mean that God was non-existent. And He called them into existence.
" All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being." (John 1:3)
If we even borrow the concept of a "where" of non-existence, for semantics sake, God still is.
- And again, would God awake a soul from such a state simply to condemn them? Is that really the nature of your God?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God will bring back to life all who have died to face judgment.
We do not know everything about the intervening stage.
.... the nature of your God?
--------------------------------------------
Saying God is only my God does nothing to negate that those who do not want God will face God one day.
Saying that He is only sonship's God didn't stop Him from creating you also, did it ?
Fortunately it didn't stop Him from becoming the Man Jesus Christ to die a redemptive death for you also as well as me.
Originally posted by @sonshipI have no further comment on the Hindu belief of reincarnation now
I have no further comment on the Hindu belief of reincarnation now.
[b]My point was that 'before' they awake they are in a state of non-existence, where even an omnipresent God is not present.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would say that non-existence has no "where".
Romans 4:17[/ ...[text shortened]... top Him from becoming the Man Jesus Christ to die a redemptive death for you also as well as me.
In fairness sir I was not asking you to come out of your Christian comfort zone and discuss reincarnation (a concept I know you struggle to understand from a Hindu perspective). I will simply drawing a parallel between 'the same person being awoken' to face judgement in the Christian faith (the continuity of the same personhood) and the reincarnated soul of Hinduism whose rebirth likewise has a continuity of the same 'personhood.' (Strange perhaps that you appear willing to accept the continuity of the same life interrupted by death, but not the continuity of the same life interrupted by rebirth).
This is getting into a semantic issue
With respect sir, the semantic muddle is of your own creation. - To put simply, God is not present in non-existence. My assertion is that 'hell' is a state of non-existence. A state where God is not present. Nothing more.
And I don't mean disrespect to your concept. But I am governed more by what the revelation of Scripture says
Here you go:
"Look, the grief I experienced was for my benefit. You delivered me from the pit of oblivion. For you removed all my sins from your sight." (Isa 38:17).