Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeIn fairness sir I was not asking you to come out of your Christian comfort zone and discuss reincarnation (a concept I know you struggle to understand from a Hindu perspective). I will simply drawing a parallel between 'the same person being awoken' to face judgement in the Christian faith (the continuity of the same personhood) and the reincarnated soul of Hinduism whose rebirth likewise has a continuity of the same 'personhood.' (Strange perhaps that you appear willing to accept the continuity of the same life interrupted by death, but not the continuity of the same life interrupted by rebirth).
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There is only a physical discontinuity as the Bible reveals.
I think this is different from a frog returning to life as a hyenna and then as a human being and then as who knows what.
You see if a soul migrates through successive stages from plant - plant - animal - animal - person #1 - person #2 - person #3 that is quite different I think.
One person losing her or his physical part and the immaterial part being in a kind of holding area until being brought back to life, is another thing. I think there is continuity there though the physical is lost for an episode.
I also have a suspicion (though I could not be too dogmatic about it) that this could also possibly work to the advantage of some souls. It is possible that such a plan of God is not completely negative.
This is speculation based only on some passages which indicate that we do not know ALL that goes on in God's way of judgment.
I have to talk latter.
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Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
With respect sir, the semantic muddle is of your own creation. - To put simply, God is not present in non-existence. My assertion is that 'hell' is a state of non-existence. A state where God is not present. Nothing more.
That may be your concept and nothing more. But I have to take into account what the revelation of the Bible actually teaches.
In Hell (Hades) the rich man "lifted up his eyes."
"And the beggar died. And he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom, and the rich man also died and was buried.
And in Hades he lifted up his eyes and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me ... etc. etc. " (Luke 16:22,23a)
Christ intends to teach that the two of them were conscious and even able to converse in the realm of the dead. The "muddle" comes in if I try to figure your teaching around what Jesus taught here.
Now there is the issue of whether Jesus was speaking in fictitious allegorical terms or as actual facts that He knew had happened. And to this question I lean towards Jesus speaking of an event that He actually knew occurred.
If there is no possibility of the situation of the rich man being in torment of punishment, then it is unrighteous of Jesus Christ to leave us with the impression that it was so. That would be misreprentative of reality.
Since I have been persuaded that Jesus Christ would not misrepresent the truth of the matter, I am persuaded that I should take the account as not more literal.
And it is not an isolated piece of biblical evidence.
We have the case of the soul and spirit of the prophet Samuel in Sheol also (1 Samuel 28).
And we have the teaching from the Apostle Peter that rather than being in an oblivion of non-existence, Jesus in His immaterial part announced the gospel to some spirits in the realm of death.
"For Christ ... on the one hand put to death in the flesh, but on the other, made alive in the Spirit, in which also He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, who had formerly disobeyed when the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared ... etc. " (See 1 Peter 3:18 - 20)
The accumulated biblical evidence is not in favor of annihilation of the dead into the oblivion of non-existence. Christ could not announce anything after He died and before He resurrected if He was non-existent. Nor could any beings hear the announcement if they altogether did not exist.
Originally posted by @sonshiptypo:
[b][quote] With respect sir, the semantic muddle is of your own creation. - To put simply,
Since I have been persuaded that Jesus Christ would not misrepresent the truth of the matter, I am persuaded that I should take the account as [edited] more literal.
You might believe anything that was told to you with enough conviction and terror. Conviction- "I believe it to be true, as I did when it was told to me. Therefor, you must believe it to be true, as I tell it to you now." Sounds like a fact, when you say it like that.
Terror- "If you do not believe it to be true, then you can't join us in paradise, you will burn for all eternity, and we won't be able to help you."
So someone wants you to follow their beliefs, with a minimal amount of questions, you are 'encouraged' to study the 'proof' in the bible, but don't ask for explanations, that's considered 'heresy'! Use that thought process in EVERY aspect of your life. In today's real world, and McDonalds will name a happy meal after you- the 'double gullible', for ages 6-12
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Originally posted by @xyyzYou might believe anything that was told to you with enough conviction and terror.
I first met Jesus as Lord and Savior. Gradually I became convinced that His integrity was beyond questioning. Then I noticed that He took the Old Testament stories literally when they appeared to be conveyed as history.
Case in point - Jesus referred to the Devil who was a murderer from the beginning (John 8:44).
"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks it out of his own possessions; for he is a liar and the father of it." (John 8:44)
1.) The "murderer" must refer to Cain or Cain and the evil spiritual force motivating him to kill Abel his brother (Genesis 4:3-9) .
It sounds to me like Jesus took the story of Cain and Abel as history.
2.) Speaking of this murderer as also a liar in whom is no truth, Jesus appears to be referring to Genesis 3 when the lies of the serpent deceived man.
Jesus must regard a relationship between the lying serpent and instigating of murder and the Devil.
3.) Apparently Jesus is teaching that the lying serpent really indicates the Devil, a spiritually evil personage.
4.) Since Jesus refers to the Devil as "your father" He upholds the concept that the Devil has in some way been the source of sinful and deceived humanity.
5.) The phrase "murderer from the beginning" must refer to the beginning of the history of humans which of course is covered in Genesis 1 - 4.
So, since I trust Jesus, I trust the accounts in Genesis of which He was speaking about.
Conviction- "I believe it to be true, as I did when it was told to me.
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With me, I met Christ first. Gradually my confidence on the whole Bible grew from my trusting in Christ.
I did not believe [g]Genesis[/b] when told of it, at first.
I do have patience with my hearers who have hesitation about some things in Genesis.
Therefor, you must believe it to be true, as I tell it to you now."
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I don't have such an attitude. The way I came was through Jesus Christ FIRST.
From knowing Jesus grew a eventual confidence on the Old Testament.
You don't have to believe in a talking snake in order to receive Jesus Christ for salvation.
Sounds like a fact, when you say it like that.
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At first some things did not sound like facts that I could believe.
The underlying fact of Jesus being alive and mysteriously available gradually led to me accepting other parts of the Bible
Terror- "If you do not believe it to be true, then you can't join us in paradise, you will burn for all eternity, and we won't be able to help you."
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Impugning petty motives may have some benefit.
Eventually whatever the motives of the messenger, the message either contains truth or it does not.
A man with petty and juvenile motives can't change the truth because of his immature character flaws. I think that has to do with "the genetic fallacy".
So someone wants you to follow their beliefs, with a minimal amount of questions, you are 'encouraged'
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Since I have questions myself, I don't discourage others from having them.
Studying the Scripture by was of questions can be effective.
to study the 'proof' in the bible, but don't ask for explanations, that's considered 'heresy'!
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I noticed how many question marks there are on sentences written by Paul in the book of Romans. IMO, even the Apostle Paul did not leave us with the impression that he had no questions left about this.
He had experience plus some questions for the reader:
"And what if God, wishing to demonstrate His wrath and make His power known, endured with much long suffering vessels of wrath fitted for destruction in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He had before prepared unto glory ... ? (See Rom. 10:22-24)
To me the tone is asking the reader to consider a possibility - a " What If? " scenario.
There are many question marks in this basic book of Christian doctrine - Romans.
To be fair though, eventually Paul does speak of God's final authority.
This, I think, is fair. The cosmic buck of truth has to end somewhere.
Use that thought process in EVERY aspect of your life.
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Imagining the disciple of Christ to be a delusional fanatic may have limited rational benefit to the man hunting for reasons not to receive salvation in Christ.
" If I can just convince myself that a Christian is by nature a mental case, I'll be ok."
In today's real world, and McDonalds will name a happy meal after you- the 'double gullible', for ages 6-12
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I received Christ as Lord around 21 years of age. I am over 60 now.
If I had ten lifetimes to live again, i would not want to waste even one of them not following Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by @sonship...I was kicked out of sunday school because I would not stop asking questions. I am over 60 and have never wasted a moment in faith belief. The world is right here, right now.
If I had ten lifetimes to live again, i would not want to waste even one of them not following Jesus Christ.
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Originally posted by @apathistI don't know how the world being "right here, right now" has much to do with it.
I was kicked out of sunday school because I would not stop asking questions. I am over 60 and have never wasted a moment in faith belief. The world is right here, right now.
The world being "right here, right now" doesn't stop you from believing dust and rock evolved into a thinking mind and an ethics weighing conscience.
Originally posted by @sonshipIt has everything to do with it. What else, other than here now, are we supposed to use as we try to understand reality (and as we weigh ethics)? What else is there?
I don't know how the world being "right here, right now" has much to do with it.
The world being "right here, right now" doesn't stop you from believing dust and rock evolved into a thinking mind and an ethics weighing conscience.
Btw i don't believe rock and dust evolved into thinking minds. But you misrepresented on purpose, didn't you.
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Originally posted by @apathistIt has everything to do with it. What else, other than here now, are we supposed to use as we try to understand reality (and as we weigh ethics)? What else is there?
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Final accountability. Final giving an account. These are matters in the future.
Of course the atheist or apatheist only feels he will melt peacefully into the dust and no more accounting will ever take place for his deeds.
Face it, if you were to expire today, wouldn't it be the case that it seems like you got away completely free with many things ? Be honest.
If you were to die today (God forbid) is it not the case that you never were called to answer for some of the sins you did ?
Btw i don't believe rock and dust evolved into thinking minds. But you misrepresented on purpose, didn't you.
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If i unfairly assumed that you believe in Darwinian evolution then I apologize for the assumption. Most of the skeptics here of the Bible take a neo-Darwinian view that all we are and can do arose from the gradualism of an evolutionary process through natural selection.
You have another viewpoint about how thinking minds and ethics weighing human consciences came about ??
Originally posted by @sonshipWhat are your standards for determining right from wrong, good from bad, truth from falsity? Your view is based on indoctrinated myth, and you cannot grow past it, and the world leaves you and yours behind.
It has everything to do with it. What else, other than here now, are we supposed to use as we try to understand reality (and as we weigh ethics)? What else is there?
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Final accountability. Final giving an account. These are matters in the future.
Originally posted by @sonshipThere is more to the answer than just evolution, but we won't find it using your approach.
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If i unfairly assumed that you believe in Darwinian evolution then I apologize for the assumption. Most of the skeptics here of the Bible take a neo-Darwinian view that all we are and can do arose from the gradualism of an evolutionary process through natural selection.
You have another viewpoint about how thinking minds and ethics weighing human consciences came about ??
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Originally posted by @apathist
What are your standards for determining right from wrong, good from bad, truth from falsity? Your view is based on indoctrinated myth, and you cannot grow past it, and the world leaves you and yours behind.
Let's get down to the nitty gritty because your question, i think, is perfectly fair.
So let's consider an example.
There is no verse in the Bible telling me many, many things. So I cannot really say "My standard here is something commanded me in the Bible." But I must have some standard. Right?
If I light up a joint of pot this evening and someone says the Bible is against that. I could say " Oh Yea? Show me anywhere in the Bible Thou Shalt Not Smoke Weed. "
So then, I can do it with a clear conscience. My standard, the Bible doesn't forbid it.
But here is why after lighting up a joint I would progably end up confessing my sin and asking the Lord Jesus to cleanse my conscience. It is the principle laid out for a Christian in Romans 8.
"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace." (Rom. 8:6)
Life there means a Person - God. God is a living Person.
Life and peace means a sense of well being, wholeness, satisfaction, rightness, cleaness, approval of God and of my own conscience.
Jesus came into me and brought to me an internal sense of "life and peace". This Person "life" - the divine ZOE life is a living God. When I do something and the enjoyment of His presence is damaged, I know that something is wrong.
Though I have no "Thou Shalt or Thou Shalt Not" regarding the smoking of marijuana, I am being trained by the sense of life and peace. The peace and life of God's presence is an arbitrator - a decider in many many things. In many things there is no specific command.
My Christian conscience catches up with me eventually.
The first joint of weed may not mean much. Maybe the sense of having grieved the Holy Spirit is barely detectable. But it grows.
Paul tells the believers to let this divine peace arbitrate like a deciding umpire. That is calling stricks and balls like the umpire of a baseball game.
Right here:
"And let the peace of Christ ARBITRATE in your hearts, to which also you were called in one Body; and be thankful." (Col. 3:15)
Deep within - "life and peace" is a decider as to where I am according to God's standard.
The opposite to the sense of life and peace is the sense of spiritual death -
" ... the mind set on the flesh is death"
This is the death of separation from God. This death is an uncomfortable feeling. It is a feeling of inner darkness rather than of brightness within. It is also a feeling of vanity, futility, and of emptiness.
Following this sense of life and peace is life transforming. It gets keener and keener. It gets deeper and deeper. There is no need for a code or a command. The sense of well being and the face of God smiling in your heart trains you to live the highest level of morality.
Originally posted by @apathistYour view is based on indoctrinated myth, and you cannot grow past it, and the world leaves you and yours behind.
What are your standards for determining right from wrong, good from bad, truth from falsity? Your view is based on indoctrinated myth, and you cannot grow past it, and the world leaves you and yours behind.
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I don't think we are being left behind in any regard. On the five continents (excluding Anartica maybe) we have operating models of communities of thriving disciples of Christ.
What I describe to you is therefore not academic theory. It is practical experience enjoyed by thousands upon thousands of people in multiple countries and in multiple cultures.
www.localchurches.org