1. Account suspended
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    02 Mar '11 11:102 edits
    There appears to me to be a contrast between the mode of meditation advocated in the Bible (henceforth known as scripture) and those practised and advocated by other modes of practice. For example, the Biblical idea of meditation literally comes from a Hebrew word meaning to talk in an undertone with oneself, that is to mull things over in ones mind, to reflect upon them and to try to draw or find a solution through the process of reflection. What is more, the consciousness of the practitioner is paramount for he must draw on his past experience, try to understand the constituent parts of whatever vexes him so as to make a whole and ultimately to find a solution. Thus its purpose is purely practical.

    This appears to me to be in contrast to other modes which advocate meditation as a vehicle to transcend the self and to free the mind of conscious thought and in doing so, we lose the vast reservoir of knowledge and experience that our consciousness has built up. If you practice meditation and have any thoughts on this please feel free to express them.
  2. Lowlands paradise
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    02 Mar '11 12:071 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    There appears to me to be a contrast between the mode of meditation advocated in the Bible (henceforth known as scripture) and those practised and advocated by other modes of practice. For example, the Biblical idea of meditation literally comes from a Hebrew word meaning to talk in an undertone with oneself, that is to mull things over in ones mind ...[text shortened]... up. If you practice meditation and have any thoughts on this please feel free to express them.
    You are right, there is a difference. I would call your biblical meditation rather concentration and contemplation. There are more religions in east and west who use that technique to get sharp minded.

    But quietening the mind (a first step in the process of meditation) is not practised for losing knowledge. Rather for getting control over your knowledge. Transcending your consciousness leads to a new field of awareness. Nothing valuable gets lost there.
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    02 Mar '11 12:211 edit
    Originally posted by souverein
    You are right, there is a difference. I would call your biblical meditation rather concentration and contemplation. There are more religions in east and west who use that technique to get sharp minded.

    But quietening the mind (a first step in the process of meditation) is not practised for losing knowledge. Rather for getting control over your knowledg ...[text shortened]... scending your consciousness leads to a new field of awareness. Nothing valuable gets lost there.
    yes that is fine, however it appears to me that the main difference lies in the use of the stream of consciousness, we are trying to draw on the consciousness, our experience, to bring to the fore what is stored subconsciously and to use it to solve problems and find solutions in the present so that we may effect the future.

    I agree that tranquillity is essential, for who can deny that when water is disturbed the reflection is distorted.

    I do not see why transcending the stream of consciousness can be of any practical value whatsoever, unless the new 'field of awareness', helps you find solutions.
  4. Lowlands paradise
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    02 Mar '11 13:48
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yes that is fine, however it appears to me that the main difference lies in the use of the stream of consciousness, we are trying to draw on the consciousness, our experience, to bring to the fore what is stored subconsciously and to use it to solve problems and find solutions in the present so that we may effect the future.

    I agree that tranquil ...[text shortened]... any practical value whatsoever, unless the new 'field of awareness', helps you find solutions.
    I do not see why transcending the stream of consciousness can be of any practical value whatsoever, unless the new 'field of awareness', helps you find solutions.
    Tranquility is a first step in meditation, although it has value in itself. It may help solve problems on a physical, emotional and mental level.
    Later on in the process of meditation problems may dilute themselves or evaporate because you experience reality itself in a mode different from our dualistic view we are accustomed to.
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    02 Mar '11 14:12
    Originally posted by souverein
    [b]I do not see why transcending the stream of consciousness can be of any practical value whatsoever, unless the new 'field of awareness', helps you find solutions.
    Tranquility is a first step in meditation, although it has value in itself. It may help solve problems on a physical, emotional and mental level.
    Later on in the process of meditation pr ...[text shortened]... u experience reality itself in a mode different from our dualistic view we are accustomed to.[/b]
    yes indeed, i agree for we get caught up in the affairs of life and a state of tranquillity indeed is of immense practical value. It appears to me that this really helps us filter out what is important and unimportant, for to be sure we are subject to many different media on a daily basis. As for the second statement, please forgive me but this seems to resemble escapism, for rather than dealing with a problem we are content to create a reality that either seeks to avoid it, or diminish it in some way. Drugs have the same effect, but the accumulative effect of them is, that we never begin to start to solve our problems, because while we are under their influence, problems evaporate, when in fact, all we have done is create a different reality, within our minds.
  6. St. Peter's
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    02 Mar '11 14:21
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yes indeed, i agree for we get caught up in the affairs of life and a state of tranquillity indeed is of immense practical value. It appears to me that this really helps us filter out what is important and unimportant, for to be sure we are subject to many different media on a daily basis. As for the second statement, please forgive me but this see ...[text shortened]... blems evaporate, when in fact, all we have done is create a different reality, within our minds.
    I may be wrong, but I thought the idea of meditation (transcedental anyway) was to empty ones mind. I could see where this might be of great advantage. Say you're trying to solve a difficult engineering problem, and you keep running into the same brick walls; clearing your mind for awhile might help you "reboot" your brain and allow for a different train of thought.

    Would that be so bad?
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    02 Mar '11 14:471 edit
    Originally posted by Doward
    I may be wrong, but I thought the idea of meditation (transcedental anyway) was to empty ones mind. I could see where this might be of great advantage. Say you're trying to solve a difficult engineering problem, and you keep running into the same brick walls; clearing your mind for awhile might help you "reboot" your brain and allow for a different train of thought.

    Would that be so bad?
    yes this is the main point of the text, for one the one hand we have the idea as prescribed by the eastern traditions of emptying ones mind, transcending consciousness and the Biblical idea (also an eastern book) which is to mull things over in ones mind. It suppose it depends on what one means, empty ones mind. If it is to clear the mind of clutter, then yes, it must be a good thing in order to see things clearly, if it is empty the mind of conscious thought, then i dont see how that can be beneficial.

    One may liken it to a tactical chess problem, first we look at generalities of the position, noting certain features, weak squares, unprotected pieces, colour complexes etc, filtering out what is unimportant, then we look at the specifics, an algorithm (variation) and follow its path, we can see that it leads to nothing, yet it diverged at a certain path, we then retrace our steps and try again, was there an element that we missed, misinterpreted, is there illusion, a piece that looks to be protected by another but in reality is not, because its pinned etc. all the time we are using our mind and our knowledge to solve the problem. If we were to clear our mind entirely we might consider that we are better off taking up painting rather than chess and the problem remains.
  8. St. Peter's
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    02 Mar '11 15:40
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yes this is the main point of the text, for one the one hand we have the idea as prescribed by the eastern traditions of emptying ones mind, transcending consciousness and the Biblical idea (also an eastern book) which is to mull things over in ones mind. It suppose it depends on what one means, empty ones mind. If it is to clear the mind of clutte ...[text shortened]... ht consider that we are better off taking up painting rather than chess and the problem remains.
    when we sleep we clear our minds of consious thought don't we? (again I may be wrong as I am not a psychologist). So it is like a wakeful sleep? I don't see the harm in that. As far as the benefits, I can't speak directly, but many swear by it.
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    02 Mar '11 15:531 edit
    Originally posted by Doward
    when we sleep we clear our minds of consious thought don't we? (again I may be wrong as I am not a psychologist). So it is like a wakeful sleep? I don't see the harm in that. As far as the benefits, I can't speak directly, but many swear by it.
    yes, but yet again sleep is an altered state of consciousness. Is it not so that while we sleep our mind is busy, 'sorting out', the events in our life, subconsciously. Its this subconscious element that we are trying to access through meditation, rather than transcend it, for here is stored our experiences.

    Again i refer to the chess analogy, for it is understood that a great deal of learning goes on subliminally, that is below the surface, or subconsciously. Players get good, but they cannot explain why, and this is the phenomena that they are experiencing. Thus it appears to me that the aim of meditation is to bridge the gap, to draw up that reservoir of experience from the subconscious and to utilise it for finding solutions.
  10. Lowlands paradise
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    02 Mar '11 17:10
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yes indeed, i agree for we get caught up in the affairs of life and a state of tranquillity indeed is of immense practical value. It appears to me that this really helps us filter out what is important and unimportant, for to be sure we are subject to many different media on a daily basis. As for the second statement, please forgive me but this see ...[text shortened]... blems evaporate, when in fact, all we have done is create a different reality, within our minds.
    As for the second statement, please forgive me but this seems to resemble escapism, for rather than dealing with a problem we are content to create a reality that either seeks to avoid it, or diminish it in some way. Drugs have the same effect, but the accumulative effect of them is, that we never begin to start to solve our problems, because while we are under their influence, problems evaporate, when in fact, all we have done is create a different reality, within our minds.

    The avoidance of problems is not the purpose of meditation , and yes one can get hooked on pleasant experiences during meditation. For myself it was mainly curiosity that made me start.

    There are resemblances and differences between drug and meditation experiences. The main difference is that experiences with drugs is that drugs throw you in deep unknown waters without knowing how to swim. You become dependent. In meditation you are building, climbing (and breaking down) your own ladder.

    You seem to be focused on solving problems. I would stress that meditation can broaden your horizon.
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    03 Mar '11 09:454 edits
    Originally posted by souverein
    As for the second statement, please forgive me but this seems to resemble escapism, for rather than dealing with a problem we are content to create a reality that either seeks to avoid it, or diminish it in some way. Drugs have the same effect, but the accumulative effect of them is, that we never begin to start to solve our problems, because while we eem to be focused on solving problems. I would stress that meditation can broaden your horizon.[/b]
    yes indeed, for if the process of meditation has no practical benefit how can we advocate its use. To state that meditation can broaden our horizon is to describe its purpose as being a little airy me thinks, almost ephemeral, for it is said that travelling can do the very same thing. I really do think that it must have some tangible benefit, something very real and earthly. What is the ladder that you speak of, i suspect it to be a kind of self awareness, but i had thought that i had better ask less it be construed as being presumptuous.
  12. Lowlands paradise
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    03 Mar '11 10:13
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yes indeed, for if the process of meditation has no practical benefit how can we advocate its use. To state that meditation can broaden our horizon is to describe its purpose as being a little airy me thinks, almost ephemeral, for it is said that travelling can do the very same thing. I really do think that it must have some tangible benefit, something very real and earthly.
    Yes we differ here. Insight by meditation elevates and stimulates me. It has a healthy influence on me as a person and on my relationship with others.

    Personally I think one should not use meditation to solve personal hang ups. There are better techniques for doing that.
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    03 Mar '11 10:271 edit
    Originally posted by souverein
    Yes we differ here. Insight by meditation elevates and stimulates me. It has a healthy influence on me as a person and on my relationship with others.

    Personally I think one should not use meditation to solve personal hang ups. There are better techniques for doing that.
    I have to disagree, there is no help like self help. One must ask, elevate you from what to what. Indeed this is the problem i have with meditation for meditations sake, its just so airy and ill defined. ( i dont mean that as an insult although i realise that it does sound a little insulting, but its not intended to be )
  14. Lowlands paradise
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    03 Mar '11 11:452 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I have to disagree, there is no help like self help. One must ask, elevate you from what to what. Indeed this is the problem i have with meditation for meditations sake, its just so airy and ill defined. ( i dont mean that as an insult although i realise that it does sound a little insulting, but its not intended to be )
    No worry, I don't feel insulted.
    It surely often helps to be informed before you start a process and to set goals. At the other hand there are also important activities, like sleeping, we usually don't need experts for.

    How start with meditation depends on your personality. Meditation is a bit like traveling. we travel to enjoy, to have a rest, to come to ourselves, to broaden our view, to return with fresh energy. It is good to know some basic things about travelling and where (not) to go. Some want to be informed as much as possible before they start their journey or during their journey. Others love the unexpected. The same is true for meditation. Depending on a person's character you may chose for strict rules or to experiment. I don't think one can say which method is better. It depends on your character what is good for you.
    I guess when you are a devote religionist anything important you do has to be in tune with your religion and or even should strengthen your belief system. So you will try to solve problems in the context of your religion. Fine, but not my cup of tea.
    I am not a religionist. For me is striving for open-mindedness and widening my awareness more valuable. You may call that airy and ill defined. I like bird views. Ground enough afterwards when I dig the garden.
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    05 Mar '11 00:35
    Originally posted by souverein
    No worry, I don't feel insulted.
    It surely often helps to be informed before you start a process and to set goals. At the other hand there are also important activities, like sleeping, we usually don't need experts for.

    How start with meditation depends on your personality. Meditation is a bit like traveling. we travel to enjoy, to have a rest, to com ...[text shortened]... at airy and ill defined. I like bird views. Ground enough afterwards when I dig the garden.
    For the Christian, meditation is like you say, a vehicle to deepen ones appreciation for God and the Christ. We take in knowledge through our minds, but in reality, if the knowledge is to percolate to the heart, the seat of motivation, then meditation is paramount, otherwise it simply remains , well, head knowledge and unable to effect the adherent. This is the reason that i think so many Christians do not act like Christ, the knowledge has failed to reach the seat of motivation, the inner person.

    We may also use it to weigh in the balance conscience based decisions which have some gravity, the process of reflection helps us to see the constituent parts so as to form a whole, and yes we also use it to try to solve problems that we may be facing. It is not therefore a form of escapism, nor of conscious dreaming but of real practical benefit , some examples of which, you have touched upon yourself 🙂
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