Originally posted by twhitehead
Why is it that when a Muslim does something bad it is blamed on Islam and he is referred to as an Islamist but when a Christian does something bad nobody ever says anything about Christianity? Is it because the media is biased?
Many of the major "bad people" in the world in the last century were religious and claimed that their actions were supported by ...[text shortened]... ke the blame but if a democracy does something bad then nobody points the finger at democracy.

Are you kidding? Christianity is being slammed all over the place. They give it different names like the "extreme right". They are targeted by the ACLU, liberals, etc.

Originally posted by twhitehead
[b]You are being selective. The old testament is filled with examples of Jews killing for God.

[

The OT does have examples of killing for God. However, what of the NT? Why does it end? Why go back in time? We now have a superior way to deal with the sinfulness of man via Christ and the cross.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But does any of that excuse the tendency to blame all 'wrong' actions by Muslims on the religion while not doing the same for Christianity. We all know that the Iraq war has killed thousands of innocent people and that Bush and many of his supporters are Christian but when did you last see a headline which read "Christian Leader, George Bush ..." or "Christi e title for worst atrocities, nor do they reflect the behavior of the majority of Muslims.[/b]

There is a significant difference in what George Bush does and what terrorist organizations do. For example, Bush, although he may claim to be a Christian, says that his actions are not based upon what God tells him to do. Conversly, the religious leaders in the Middle East tend to tell the people that "God says do this and such". One way of government is a theocracy and the other a secular outlook. Do you really think that Bush would be in Iraq if it were not for national security interests such as oil? Why is he not fighting Muslims in the Sudan if he is on a religious crusade? It would stand to reason that he would probably recieve much more support around the world for stopping the genocide in the Sudan compared to being in Iraq.

Originally posted by ahosyney
[Just a simple word to Whody:

You continue making claims without a proof, and you keep repeating yourself. For 100 times you say that Prophet Mohammed encourage killing others, and I replayed 100 times where did he said that. But of course it is not in your agenda to search for the truth, or correct your views. You only care about showing how Christianity i ...[text shortened]... ing exterminated from Bosnia by the hands of Christian groups, but no one called that Terrorism.[/b]

What I was trying to say is that Mohammad gives you the right to fight back against oppressors. For example, compare Christ telling his disciple Peter to put away his sword when they came to take him to the cross compared to Mohammad who fought those who he percieved was oppressing him. Do you deny that Mohammad at times killed those he percieved to have oppressed him?

I am sure you will say, "Would you not kill someone that comes to kil. you or your loved one?" I would say that this is probably the natural tendency due to our sense of self preservation. However, Christ did not act in such a way. Why? Why do you think Christ did not fight back and why do you think he told Peter to put away his sword? Was he not being unfairly oppressed? In terms of Mohammads teaching, did Christ not have the right to fight back via the sword? After all, what crime did Christ do to deserve such a fate?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Why is it that when a Muslim does something bad it is blamed on Islam and he is referred to as an Islamist but when a Christian does something bad nobody ever says anything about Christianity? Is it because the media is biased?
Many of the major "bad people" in the world in the last century were religious and claimed that their actions were supported by ...[text shortened]... ke the blame but if a democracy does something bad then nobody points the finger at democracy.

You haven't heard of the US being referred to as a nation of Crusaders?

Originally posted by whodey
For example, Bush, although he may claim to be a Christian, says that his actions are not based upon what God tells him to do.

I remember Bush stating that God did tell him to go to Iraq.

Do you really think that Bush would be in Iraq if it were not for national security interests such as oil? Why is he not fighting Muslims in the Sudan if he is on a religious crusade?
And why is Al'Qaeda not attacking Christian nations like Zambia? Exactly the same reasons.

It would stand to reason that he would probably recieve much more support around the world for stopping the genocide in the Sudan compared to being in Iraq.
Ha ha. Who is stopping the war in Sudan? Do you even know? If you don't then why would the US get credit if the did it. Nobody cares because the people involved are black and Muslim.
How many farmers in Zimbabwe got killed? How many farmers in Sudan got killed? Which one gets more media coverage?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Are you kidding? Christianity is being slammed all over the place. They give it different names like the "extreme right". They are targeted by the ACLU, liberals, etc.

So anything said about "the extreme right" is really being said about Christians around the world? I learn't something new today.

Originally posted by whodey
The OT does have examples of killing for God. However, what of the NT? Why does it end? Why go back in time? We now have a superior way to deal with the sinfulness of man via Christ and the cross.

In other words you are willing to ignore more than half the Bible but when accusing the Muslims you quote one or two verses out of context and claim to have proved a point. Every Muslim I have talked to says that terrorism is wrong and against their religion. If you choose to ignore what they say and use the Qu'ran to prove your point then you must accept me ignoring what you have to say and using the Bible to prove the point. And besides, you have accepted that the God you believe in does condone killing for him (in fact he orders it) saying that times have changed doesn't change that.

Originally posted by twhitehead
In other words you are willing to ignore more than half the Bible but when accusing the Muslims you quote one or two verses out of context and claim to have proved a point. Every Muslim I have talked to says that terrorism is wrong and against their religion. If you choose to ignore what they say and use the Qu'ran to prove your point then you must accept ...[text shortened]... one killing for him (in fact he orders it) saying that times have changed doesn't change that.

No, I am not ignoring it just as Christ did not ignore it.

Matthew 5:38 "You have heard that it has been said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But I say to you, that you resist not evil; but whosever will smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue you at the law and take away your coat, let him have your cloke also. And whosoever will compel you to go a mile, go with him twain.....You have heard it said you will love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to those that hate you, and pray for them which despitfully use and persecute you."

So is Jesus doing away with the Mosaic law of the eye for an eye and to kill your enemies? Yes and no. The spirit of the law is to erradicate sin. In Mosaic times this often meant destroying the sinner to do so. Then came Jesus who said that through him we can break the shackles of sin in our lives thus destroying the sin while preserving the sinner. So Christ is upholding the spirit of the law but changing the wording and tactics. Why is this so hard to understand? In terms of Islam, they have only the Mosaic tactics to deal with sin. In fact, Allah hates those who rebel against him as where our heavenly Father loves all and even offered his only Son to those who hate him and were openly rebelling against him.

When someone is fighting you or persecuting you the natural reaction is to strike back and most people would. Mohammad was not different in this regard. When he felt wrongly oppressed he struck back. At times he killed with the sword as a result. You could possibly even justify such actions as understandable in terms of self defense. However, contrast Mohammad with Christ who never struck back and who even chastised his disciple for drawing his sword to defend him when they came to take him to his death. For the Muslim who claims that Jesus was a prophet from God, how is the teaching of Jesus reconcilable with the actions of Mohammad in terms of loving your enemies? I suppose that the response would be that the teachings of Jesus were corrupted in some way. However, compare and contrast the hisorical Jesus and the historical Mohammad. One NEVER was documented as raising a revolt and the other is documented as waging war at times. Who's way is better in your view?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I remember Bush stating that God did tell him to go to Iraq.

[b]Do you really think that Bush would be in Iraq if it were not for national security interests such as oil? Why is he not fighting Muslims in the Sudan if he is on a religious crusade?
And why is Al'Qaeda not attacking Christian nations like Zambia? Exactly the same reasons.

It ...[text shortened]... Zimbabwe got killed? How many farmers in Sudan got killed? Which one gets more media coverage?

So we can both agree that the reasons for war on not really based upon what God may have told either Bush or the Islamic terrorists correct? They are acting on thier own vilition. One can claim all day to be acting on God's command but they are, in fact, lying to everyone else or to themselves.

However, there is one religious reason that the terrorists are doing what they are doing. That reason is the existance of the Zionist state of Israel. Because it has been marked by Mohammad as a holy site, Muslims around the world long for an Arab Holy Land and, in fact, will not rest until it occurs. As a result, those who support Israel are seen as the enemy like the US. Whether you think Israel has a right to exist or do not is irrelavent to this truth. I wonder if there is so much as one Muslim who feels that fighting back against the Zionists is unwarranted? If there are, I have not met one. The only question becomes to what lengths do they support fighting evil with evil.

Originally posted by whodey
No, I am not ignoring it just as Christ did not ignore it.

Matthew 5:38 "You have heard that it has been said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But I say to you, that you resist not evil; but whosever will smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue you at the law and take away your coat, let him have yo ...[text shortened]... revolt and the other is documented as waging war at times. Who's way is better in your view?

You have to admit, though, that not all Christians agree about the extent of Jesus’ message of non-violence (or non-violent resistance). I mean at the ethical/hermeneutical level, not just practical inability to live up to it.

I will also note that the Qur’an also includes fighting against those who attack churches and synagogues—i.e., it is not just in defense of Muslims. How well Muslims live up to that principle is, of course, as open to question and examination as it is for Christians or anybody else.

That aside, however, you might very well enjoy a series of books by Lutheran theologian Walter Wink: Naming the Powers, Unmasking the Powers and Engaging the Powers, which explore a “theology” of Christian non-violent resistance. Wink put his body where his theology is in the struggle against apartheid in South Africa. (He also wrote a single book summarizing the trilogy, but I haven’t read it.)

Originally posted by vistesd
You have to admit, though, that not all Christians agree about the extent of Jesus’ message of non-violence (or non-violent resistance). I mean at the ethical/hermeneutical level, not just practical inability to live up to it.

I will also note that the Qur’an also includes fighting against those who attack churches and synagogues—i.e., it is not just in ...[text shortened]... in South Africa. (He also wrote a single book summarizing the trilogy, but I haven’t read it.)

Many, many, many people do not live up to Christ's example, however, it stands as is.

As far as the book, thanks for the reference. I will have to look it up. What also comes to mind is the Polish movement of Solodarity and how Pope John Paul made its leaders to promise a coarse of nonviolence against the communist regime. The notion to fight evil with good is counterintuitive but it has shown to work. As far as fighting evil with evil, however, what good has this done in the Middle East for either side? All that is accomplished is more and more filled body bags.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So anything said about "the extreme right" is really being said about Christians around the world? I learn't something new today.

Not neccessarily, but for the most part....

Originally posted by whodey
Many, many, many people do not live up to Christ's example, however, it stands as is.

As far as the book, thanks for the reference. I will have to look it up. What also comes to mind is the Polish movement of Solodarity and how Pope John Paul made its leaders to promise a coarse of nonviolence against the communist regime. The notion to fight evil with ...[text shortened]... n the Middle East for either side? All that is accomplished is more and more filled body bags.

Wink agrees with you, and does detailed Biblical exegesis to back it up. I think you'd like it. (Been a number of years since I' read it.)

Originally posted by whodey
However, there is one religious reason that the terrorists are doing what they are doing. That reason is the existance of the Zionist state of Israel. Because it has been marked by Mohammad as a holy site, Muslims around the world long for an Arab Holy Land and, in fact, will not rest until it occurs. As a result, those who support Israel are seen as the e ...[text shortened]... not met one. The only question becomes to what lengths do they support fighting evil with evil.

And the US's support of Israel is in part a result of Christians believing Israel to be a Christian Holy site.

But not all conflicts involving Muslims are related to Israel.