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@rajk999 saidIs there a distinction between anyone who does good works as you proclaim them and those who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, who works out of love for Him? If the anyone we can point to who do good works, is done by those who reject Jesus, deny Him, want nothing to with Him, or find Him of no more importance than any other belief system, are they by their works accepted by God anyway?
It accomplishes nothing unless you are an English speaking person reading a Hebrew bible. If your bible is in English and Jesus says
- feed the poor
- help the needy
- clothe the naked
.. God would just laugh at you if you need God to help you understand that.
The teachings of Jesus Christ are in plain simple language. Your pray reading is hypocritical nonsense that makes you look stupid. Jesus said to go and go good works. Its that simple.
@rajk999 saidWell at least you’re finally identifying Jesus’ commands.
It accomplishes nothing unless you are an English speaking person reading a Hebrew bible. If your bible is in English and Jesus says
- feed the poor
- help the needy
- clothe the naked
.. God would just laugh at you if you need God to help you understand that.
The teachings of Jesus Christ are in plain simple language. Your pray reading is hypocritical nonsense that makes you look stupid. Jesus said to go and go good works. Its that simple.
But you’ve falsely claimed two things:
1) That good works are necessary for salvation. They’re not. They’re evidence of salvation.
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
(Ephesians 2:8-9)
2) That I said Christians had no obligation to do good works or obey Jesus’ commands. Obviously they should. My point was no one can obey Jesus’ commands 100% of the time. Do you have a spare $20 bill in your pocket? Why haven’t you donated it to the poor? Do you drive a car? Why haven’t you sold it and donated the proceeds to the poor?
Didn’t Jesus Christ tell the rich young ruler to sell all he had, donate the proceeds to the poor and follow Him?
Have you done that? Has any Christian?
Jesus told the rich young ruler that to demonstrate the rich young ruler’s inability - in fact, all of our inability - to keep the Law to perfection.
God’s standard is perfection, and we don’t meet it. You can’t earn your way into Heaven.
And Jesus said the Father’s will was for people to believe in His Son and Jesus would grant them everlasting life.
You still haven’t explained John 6:40:
“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
(John 6:40)
@pb1022 saidJesus is the author of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Paul is not. I'm more interested in what Jesus preached. I place more weight in that Gospel.
Well at least you’re finally identifying Jesus’ commands.
But you’ve falsely claimed two things:
1) That good works are necessary for salvation. They’re not. They’re evidence of salvation.
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
(Ephesians 2:8-9)
2) That I said Chri ...[text shortened]... elieveth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
(John 6:40)
@rajk999 saidFair enough. But Jesus was speaking in John 6:40, not Paul.
Jesus is the author of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Paul is not. I'm more interested in what Jesus preached. I place more weight in that Gospel.
And Paul was appointed by Jesus to bring His Gospel to the Gentiles. Are you suggesting Paul failed in that mission?
“And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:”
(Acts 9:1-15)
Paul corroborated this account in one of his letters (I believe the first) to the church at Corinth.
@rajk999 saidJesus sent us the Holy Spirit, who opens eyes and minds, teaches and leads us. So when the Spirit of God leads us, there will never be a difference between the truth the Spirit of God teaches us and what Jesus said. You seem to put a distinction between the work of the Spirit of God and Jesus.
Jesus is the author of eternal life in the kingdom of God. Paul is not. I'm more interested in what Jesus preached. I place more weight in that Gospel.
@kellyjay saidYou have repeated that nonsense several times and it makes no sense. There are literally thousands of groups of Christian churches all claiming to have the Holy Spirit and the sole truth [ie God is with them] and all preaching different doctrines. So excuse me for not believing what you say. I think you and your church are frauds.
Jesus sent us the Holy Spirit, who opens eyes and minds, teaches and leads us. So when the Spirit of God leads us, there will never be a difference between the truth the Spirit of God teaches us and what Jesus said. You seem to put a distinction between the work of the Spirit of God and Jesus.
Like I said many times, I stick with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You choose who you want to believe.
@pb1022 saidPauls letter to the churches must be taken in its entirety, and not cherry picked. That means that if for example Pauls letter to the church at Galatia is taken in its entirety then the following Gospel of Christ, would emerge
Fair enough. But Jesus was speaking in John 6:40, not Paul.
And Paul was appointed by Jesus to bring His Gospel to the Gentiles. Are you suggesting Paul failed in that mission?
“And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found ...[text shortened]... Paul corroborated this account in one of his letters (I believe the first) to the church at Corinth.
1 Faith and Baptism
2 A change of lifestyle, repentance and avoiding sin
3 Righteousness and Good Works
4 The consequences of disobedience - Damnation
That means that Paul preached the same doctrine as Christ.
What you church people have done is to focus on #1 and ignore the rest. Paul preached the whole Gospel of Christ, and he was crystal clear that there is NO ETERNAL LIFE without obedience to the commandments of Christ.
@rajk999 saidMy reference to Paul’s letter to the church at Corinth was to show Paul corroborated Luke’s account in Acts that Paul encountered the Resurrected Christ on the Road to Damascus.
Pauls letter to the churches must be taken in its entirety, and not cherry picked. That means that if for example Pauls letter to the church at Galatia is taken in its entirety then the following Gospel of Christ, would emerge
1 Faith and Baptism
2 A change of lifestyle, repentance and avoiding sin
3 Righteousness and Good Works
4 The consequences of disobedience - ...[text shortened]... he was crystal clear that there is NO ETERNAL LIFE without obedience to the commandments of Christ.
As for this paragraph that you wrote:
<<Paul preached the whole Gospel of Christ, and he was crystal clear that there is NO ETERNAL LIFE without obedience to the commandments of Christ.>>
Assuming what you wrote there is true, and I don’t believe it is, but I’ll assume it for the sake of argument, what level of obedience is needed? Obedience to 100%? Because perfection is God’s standard.
Can anyone love God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength and truly love their neighbors as themselves, which Jesus said were the two greatest commandments?
Has any Christian sold all he had - literally everything - and donated that money to the poor and then followed Jesus, as Jesus told the rich young ruler to do? Remember the rich young ruler boasted of his law keeping and Jesus told him “one thing you lack” and then identified that he hadn’t sold all his possessions and donated that money to the poor.
So what to what degree is obedience needed for eternal life? There’s a gaping hole in your doctrine if you can’t answer that.
Do you think God wants Christians guessing if they’re saved and unsure if they’re saved?
Jesus is quite clear in John 6:40 about how one obtains eternal life. And you continually ignore what Jesus said in John 6:40.
Yes, good works and obedience are important. But they’re evidence of salvation and a changed heart - not a requirement for salvation. If they were, Jesus would not have told the thief on the cross next to Him that the thief would be in Paradise with Him after the thief expressed belief in Jesus (and the thief’s belief was obviously genuine.)
Why do you think that account was included in the Gospels?
@rajk999 saidWhy didn't you answer my other question? Will people who do the good works you have talked about be accepted by God even if they deny Jesus, ignore Jesus, have nothing to do with Jesus? If good works are as you put it the gospel of Jesus Christ are these works all that God requires accordingly?
You have repeated that nonsense several times and it makes no sense. There are literally thousands of groups of Christian churches all claiming to have the Holy Spirit and the sole truth [ie God is with them] and all preaching different doctrines. So excuse me for not believing what you say. I think you and your church are frauds.
Like I said many times, I stick with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You choose who you want to believe.
@kellyjay saidI realize you didn’t ask this question of me, but I’d like to answer it anyway:
Why didn't you answer my other question? Will people who do the good works you have talked about be accepted by God even if they deny Jesus, ignore Jesus, have nothing to do with Jesus? If good works are as you put it the gospel of Jesus Christ are these works all that God requires accordingly?
I think the principal purpose in accepting Christ and believing in Christ and His Resurrection is to have your sins forgiven.
So someone who does good works (no matter what the number) but rejects Christ still has a boatload of unforgiven sins.
The reason Jesus Christ was called the Lamb of God was because His sacrifice atoned for the sins of all those who accept and believe in Him.
And just like in Old Testament times when the sinner had to place his hand(s) on a lamb without blemish for his sins to be transferred to the lamb and for the lamb’s innocence to be transferred to him, so participation by the sinner is required to have his sins transferred to Christ and Christ’s righteousness transferred to him.
The obvious difference is the literal lamb (and other animals) could never take away sins eternally; those sacrifices had to be done on a continual basis. But Jesus Christ, when He takes away sins, takes away all sins once and for all.
But active participation by the sinner, in the form of accepting and believing in Christ, is required, just as active participation by the sinner was required in Old Testament times.
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In Rajk999's OP:
A favorite pastime of Christians. I dont think Paul intended for Christians to do that.
Paul wrote that he and his co-worker had no confidence in the flesh. Instead of this unreliable confidence in the fallen nature of man (even its good doing) they "boast[ed]" in the One who lived in them as the Spirit, Christ Jesus.
That is their complete trust was in the Holy Spirit within them.
Phil. 3:3
New King James Version
For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
New American Standard Bible
for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and take pride in Christ Jesus, and put no confidence in the flesh,
Recovery Version
"For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh."
@sonship saidThese are excellent verses that illustrate your point.
In Rajk999's OP:A favorite pastime of Christians. I dont think Paul intended for Christians to do that.
Paul wrote that he and his co-worker had no confidence in the flesh. Instead of this unreliable confidence in the fallen nature of man (even its good doing) they "boast[ed]" in the One who lived in them as the Spirit, Christ Jesus.
That is ...[text shortened]... who serve by the Spirit of God and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh." [/b]
@pb1022 saidA whole bunch of questions in there some of which I can see are just rhetorical and others are personal. Notice I do not ask you questions like that. My posts are short and concise, I resist the temptation to ask personal questions which have no place in an online discussion and I ask relevant simple questions ... so try again if you like.
My reference to Paul’s letter to the church at Corinth was to show Paul corroborated Luke’s account in Acts that Paul encountered the Resurrected Christ on the Road to Damascus.
As for this paragraph that you wrote:
<<Paul preached the whole Gospel of Christ, and he was crystal clear that there is NO ETERNAL LIFE without obedience to the commandments of Christ.>>
Assu ...[text shortened]... thief’s belief was obviously genuine.)
Why do you think that account was included in the Gospels?