1. Standard memberChronicLeaky
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    13 Dec '08 15:52
    Do Lutherans really think (doctrinally speaking) that the Pope is the Antichrist? Isn't this pretty anticlimactic? Where's the drama?
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    13 Dec '08 19:41
    Originally posted by ChronicLeaky
    Do Lutherans really think (doctrinally speaking) that the Pope is the Antichrist? Isn't this pretty anticlimactic? Where's the drama?
    Never heard of it, and I am brought up as a lutheran.
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    13 Dec '08 20:03
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Never heard of it, and I am brought up as a lutheran.
    FWIW:
    http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&contentID=4441&collectionID=795&shortcutID=5297
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    13 Dec '08 20:50
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    FWIW:
    http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&contentID=4441&collectionID=795&shortcutID=5297
    Never heard of it. I's not a part of my lutheran tradition anyway.
    But I've heard that the pope eat barbecuded stillborn infants occationally. But that is not true either, according to my opinion.
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    13 Dec '08 21:041 edit
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Never heard of it. I's not a part of my lutheran tradition anyway.
    But I've heard that the pope eat barbecuded stillborn infants occationally. But that is not true either, according to my opinion.
    If you haven't heard of it, it mustn't be true 🙂

    From Wiki:
    "The Smalcald Articles or Schmalkald Articles (German: Schmalkaldische Artikel) are a summary of Lutheran doctrine, written by Martin Luther in 1537 for a meeting of the Schmalkaldic League in preparation for an intended ecumenical Council of the Church."

    The Smalcald Articles:
    http://bookofconcord.org/smalcald.php

    From Article IV:
    "10] This teaching shows forcefully that the Pope is the very Antichrist, who has exalted himself above, and opposed himself against Christ because he will not permit Christians to be saved without his power, which, nevertheless, is nothing, and is neither ordained nor commanded by God."
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    13 Dec '08 21:15
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    If you haven't heard of it, it mustn't be true 🙂

    From Wiki:
    "The Smalcald Articles or Schmalkald Articles (German: Schmalkaldische Artikel) are a summary of Lutheran doctrine, written by Martin Luther in 1537 for a meeting of the Schmalkaldic League in preparation for an intended ecumenical Council of the Church."

    The Smalcald Articles:
    http:// ...[text shortened]... his power, which, nevertheless, is nothing, and is neither ordained nor commanded by God."
    He was asking "Do Lutherans really think...", and I answered his question: "Never heard of it, and I am brought up as a lutheran." That means that there are lutherans that doesn't heard of it (namely me, and I'm not alone), and therefore doesn't think that.

    But if you ask what I believe - there is no antichrist at all, so the pope cannot be antichrist. He cannot even be as sacred and godlike as catolics imply. He is a ordinary human, as you and me. Why make him a supernatural? He cannot be neither anti-christ, nor pro-christ.

    And this is my opinion.
    What's yours?
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    13 Dec '08 21:34
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    He was asking "Do Lutherans really think...", and I answered his question: "Never heard of it, and I am brought up as a lutheran." That means that there are lutherans that doesn't heard of it (namely me, and I'm not alone), and therefore doesn't think that.

    But if you ask what I believe - there is no antichrist at all, so the pope cannot be antichrist. ...[text shortened]... cannot be neither anti-christ, nor pro-christ.

    And this is my opinion.
    What's yours?
    Don't really have an opinion. I took your response to my first post to mean that you didn't believe that there were Lutherans who believed that the Pope is the Antichrist.
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    13 Dec '08 21:59
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Don't really have an opinion. I took your response to my first post to mean that you didn't believe that there were Lutherans who believed that the Pope is the Antichrist.
    No, only that is not a fundamental dogma among lutherans, nothing more.

    Can you think up an opinion, then be sure that someone has it as his.
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    13 Dec '08 22:13
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    No, only that is not a fundamental dogma among lutherans, nothing more.

    Can you think up an opinion, then be sure that someone has it as his.
    Evidently it is fundamental dogma amongst some Lutheran groups.

    Sorry, but I have no idea what your second sentence means.
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    13 Dec '08 22:46
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Evidently it is fundamental dogma amongst some Lutheran groups.

    Sorry, but I have no idea what your second sentence means.
    Sorry, my last sentence means somethings like - "There are opinions of all kind."

    Therefore there are lutherans who believe in proposterous things, as there are catolics that believe in proposterous things. Believing that the pope is anti-christ is one, believing that Luther is anti-christ is another one.
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    14 Dec '08 00:433 edits
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Sorry, my last sentence means somethings like - "There are opinions of all kind."

    Therefore there are lutherans who believe in proposterous things, as there are catolics that believe in proposterous things. Believing that the pope is anti-christ is one, believing that Luther is anti-christ is another one.
    It's not as if these Lutheran groups just pulled their opinion out of thin air. Martin Luther explicitly expressed this view. Luther said, "This teaching [of the supremacy of the pope] shows forcefully that the Pope is the very Antichrist, who has exalted himself above, and opposed himself against Christ, because he will not permit Christians to be saved without his power, which, nevertheless, is nothing, and is neither ordained nor commanded by God." In this light, your point seems to make little sense. You might want to consider whether or not those who disagree with Luther's assessment are truly "Lutheran" 🙂
  12. Standard memberChronicLeaky
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    14 Dec '08 05:10
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    He was asking "Do Lutherans really think...", and I answered his question: "Never heard of it, and I am brought up as a lutheran." That means that there are lutherans that doesn't heard of it (namely me, and I'm not alone), and therefore doesn't think that.

    But if you ask what I believe - there is no antichrist at all, so the pope cannot be antichrist. ...[text shortened]... cannot be neither anti-christ, nor pro-christ.

    And this is my opinion.
    What's yours?
    Thanks for answering the question 🙂.

    The reason I asked is that I of course agree that the pope is an ordinary human, and furthermore that while historical popes have been responsible for some nasty things, it seems to me like the people who write religious doctrine could have had a lot more fun with the Antichrist than simply demonising an office which has so far failed to bring about the end of the world or anything close.
  13. Break-twitching
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    14 Dec '08 06:51
    The anti-Christ is not one individual. It is the current 'movement' of man away from God to secular-progression and all the perversions entwined within this movement. One can see it occurring and becoming larger every day on the news. The fact that man is becomeing Godless is anti-Christ.
  14. weedhopper
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    14 Dec '08 08:11
    Ahhh-hem. As a Lutheran, I am planning to ask my pastor shortly about this question. I read the passage in the Book of Concord, and I understand it to (possibly) be referring to: A) the pope at the time the book was written or,B) as the previous poster states, speakung to the office in general, not one specific pope,
  15. weedhopper
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    15 Dec '08 16:22
    The Book of Concord was indeed speaking of the office, NOT a specific individual.
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