1. Hmmm . . .
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    21 Jul '08 05:391 edit
    The following are from footnotes in the aforementioned NRSV version (where quotes by Paul are from the Hebrew text, only the relevant OT passage is cited in the notes; at least that's the way I read them):

    Romans 1:17—“The quotation (Hab 2:4) does not agree exactly with either the Hebrew or the Greek text; it may be Paul’s own rendering.”

    Romans 10:7—“Abyss agrees with an Aramaic paraphrase of Deut. 30:13 (see Targum Neofiti 1) and suggests Christ’s resurrection from the subterranean realm of the dead. Hebrew and Greek (Septuagint) texts of Deuteronomy instead refer to crossing the sea.”

    Romans 11:34—“See Isa 40:13 (Septuagint).”

    Romans 15:10—“Deut 32:43 (Septuagint). With, present only in the Greek version, is essential for Paul’s argument.”

    2nd Corinthians 4:6—“‘Let light shine out of darkness.’ These precise words do not appear in the OT; see, however, Gen 1:3, Ps 112:4, Isa 9:2.”

    Ephesians 4:26—“‘Be angry but do not sin.’ See Psalm 4:4 (Septuagint).” (Assuming Pauline authorship of Ephesians.)

    Also—

    Galatians 4:29—“The idea that Ishmael persecuted Isaac is found in rabbinic midrash, based on Gen 21.9.”

    ________________________________

    These were ones that I had marked, and so could find by leafing through. If I come across references from other sources that I have around, I’ll be happy to post them.
  2. SEMO
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    21 Jul '08 21:522 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    You need to learn to use a concordance.
    Im tired of trying to educate you.
    Check the Greek words for 'surely die' in Genesis with a case that we know applies to 'spiritually dead' and see if the words used are the same. Eg. when Christ said "let the dead bury their dead' .. we know he meant spiritually dead.
    Excuse me, but you have done nothing to try and educate me. All you have done is dissagree with me.

    I have checked the diffinition to the words 'surely die'. The strongs concordance shows both words to be from the same Hebrew word 'mooth'.

    surely die (H4191, H4191):
    H4191
    מוּת
    mûth
    mooth
    A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.


    Do you see where the definition shows that it could mean 'very suddenly'? However, they did not physically die sudenly did they?

    I would like you to try answering my questions from earlier. Why is was there a tree of life if they were immortal to begin with?
  3. Standard memberduecer
    anybody seen my
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    21 Jul '08 22:32
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Adam and Eve did die physcially, just not immediately. Man became mortal. As far as I can tell God meant physically.

    How do you know God meant that they died spiritually. Do you Biblical support for that?

    In 1 Cor 2:14 the word natural really means 'sensual', and cannot apply to all of mankind. That verse is saying that people who focus on the satisfaction of the senses cannot also be spiritual.
    do you think partaking of the fruit was an act of Transfiguration?
  4. PenTesting
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    21 Jul '08 23:41
    Originally posted by duecer
    do you think partaking of the fruit was an act of Transfiguration?
    'Transfiguration' is a kind of vague word. Exactly what do you mean.
    I know both Adam and Eve was changed. Dont know exactly how.
  5. PenTesting
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    21 Jul '08 23:46
    Originally posted by pritybetta
    Excuse me, but you have done nothing to try and educate me. All you have done is dissagree with me.

    I have checked the diffinition to the words 'surely die'. The strongs concordance shows both words to be from the same Hebrew word 'mooth'.

    surely die (H4191, H4191):
    H4191
    מוּת
    mûth
    mooth
    A primitive root; to die (l ...[text shortened]... estions from earlier. Why is was there a tree of life if they were immortal to begin with?
    So your proof that the Genesis story means spiritual death is somewhere in the New Testament written some 2000 years later. It means that the guys with the Old Testament only were unable to figure out what kind of death God was referring to.
  6. Joined
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    22 Jul '08 01:24
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    It doesn't seem to me that, in Romans 8, Paul is describing a "victory from sin" or an "overcoming of sin" - at least not in the true meaning of the words. What Paul seems to be describing is a release from responsibility for ones own sin. In other words, one can continue to commit acts of sin, but won't be condemned for them. In my mind, "overcoming of s ...[text shortened]... taught that this is required for "eternal life"/"entrance to heaven"/"salvation".
    I thought of a whole bunch of questions at once. Mind answering them?

    If paul was a false prophet as you teach, does that mean their is no apostle to the gentiles? Do you have to be circumcised to be righteous? Does Jesus only save those who are already perfect? Is the book of acts reliable? If not shouldn't we kick it out of Bible? What happens to the sins you commit before you become righteous?

    And thanks for posting all that scripture. It gives me joy and faith to read and study it.

    Romans10:17 Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Colossians3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom;
  7. Joined
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    22 Jul '08 13:54
    Originally posted by SmoothCowboy
    I thought of a whole bunch of questions at once. Mind answering them?

    If paul was a false prophet as you teach, does that mean their is no apostle to the gentiles? Do you have to be circumcised to be righteous? Does Jesus only save those who are already perfect? Is the book of acts reliable? If not shouldn't we kick it out of Bible? What happens to ...[text shortened]... by the word of God.

    Colossians3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom;
    I don't really mind answering them, but I'd rather have a discussion. This is beginning to feel more like an interrogation. Can you at least comment on what I posted previously? What do you agree with? What don't you agree with and why? You know, that kind of stuff.
  8. Standard memberknightmeister
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    22 Jul '08 17:38
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    I don't really mind answering them, but I'd rather have a discussion. This is beginning to feel more like an interrogation. Can you at least comment on what I posted previously? What do you agree with? What don't you agree with and why? You know, that kind of stuff.
    This is beginning to feel more like an interrogation. -ToO---------------

    It's not an interrogation , he's asking you some perfectly valid questions. Because they are awkward ones for your position you are subtly deflecting them away.
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    22 Jul '08 18:30
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    This is beginning to feel more like an interrogation. -ToO---------------

    It's not an interrogation , he's asking you some perfectly valid questions. Because they are awkward ones for your position you are subtly deflecting them away.
    Why do you feel compelled to comment on almost everything I post no matter how out of line?

    All I asked for was for him to engage more in discussion. Like I said in my post, I really don't mind answering his questions.

    If you're this childish in your late 40's, I don't really want to think about what you were like 10-15 years ago.
  10. Standard memberknightmeister
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    22 Jul '08 22:40
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Why do you feel compelled to comment on almost everything I post no matter how out of line?

    All I asked for was for him to engage more in discussion. Like I said in my post, I really don't mind answering his questions.

    If you're this childish in your late 40's, I don't really want to think about what you were like 10-15 years ago.
    Why do YOU feel compelled to have a go at me when you could easily spend time just answering some straight questions with some straight answers?

    As it happens some of smooth's questions are ones I would like to ask myself anyway. I tell you what..... I'll pop in on this thread in 10 years time and see if you have answered them.

    Your ideas about being "interrogated" are just rationalizations on your part to avoid answering them. You of all people should be able to spot a good rationalization. Or maybe you only spot them in others??
  11. Joined
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    23 Jul '08 00:32
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Why do YOU feel compelled to have a go at me when you could easily spend time just answering some straight questions with some straight answers?

    As it happens some of smooth's questions are ones I would like to ask myself anyway. I tell you what..... I'll pop in on this thread in 10 years time and see if you have answered them.

    Your ideas about ...[text shortened]... eople should be able to spot a good rationalization. Or maybe you only spot them in others??
    And once again you prove my point.
  12. Joined
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    23 Jul '08 01:32
    Originally posted by knightmeister


    Your ideas about being "interrogated" are just rationalizations on your part to avoid answering them. You of all people should be able to spot a good rationalization. Or maybe you only spot them in others??
    Even though you may mean well, take a good look at your words.

    Titus 2:1-2

    Colossians 4:6
    (6) Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

    It's something to think about anyways.
  13. Joined
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    23 Jul '08 01:51
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    I don't really mind answering them, but I'd rather have a discussion. This is beginning to feel more like an interrogation. Can you at least comment on what I posted previously? What do you agree with? What don't you agree with and why? You know, that kind of stuff.
    In discussing these things, I keep wondering these things. I guess I am a curious person and like to know why? I didn't exactly intend to make it an interrogation but at the same time I am trying your faith to see what it is based on.

    ""Can you at least comment on what I posted previously?""

    I'll say this, I like your commitment to the word's of Jesus,but am dismayed at your throwing out of OT and NT scripture in the process of trying to make it fit. In doing that I am trying to figure out the details of how you got to there and and what God's Word says about that.

    This is just my opinion on this for whatever it is worth. I am really enjoying the time I spent studying this.

    Psalms 18:30-32
    (30) As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
    (31) For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?
    (32) It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect.
  14. Joined
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    23 Jul '08 02:191 edit
    Originally posted by SmoothCowboy
    In discussing these things, I keep wondering these things. I guess I am a curious person and like to know why? I didn't exactly intend to make it an interrogation but at the same time I am trying your faith to see what it is based on.

    ""Can you at least comment on what I posted previously?""

    I'll say this, I like your commitment to the word's save our God?
    (32) It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect.
    I guess I'm hoping for something much more specific and detailed. 🙂

    How about discussing my take on Romans 7 & 8 especially in light of Matthew 7:15-20? What your take is, where it is different than mine and why.
  15. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    23 Jul '08 12:14
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    And once again you prove my point.
    As I was always destined to in your mind.
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