Born again

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
a classic example of taking the bible and reaching whatever conclusion you may like.

If you are born of the Spirit, you cannot sin.
really? who is then born of the spirit? jesus yes. who else? anyone can sin, even jesus. otherwise he would not have free will. he chooses not to.

"you must be born again" doesn't mean you must have a ceremony with dud ...[text shortened]... e where you were searching for a meaning and find a new life living in accordance with god.

Free will is not taught in the Bible, it is something that man has came up with. I was taught that we have free will, however, when I read the Bible I find nothing to support such claim.

Some one can only be saved(born again) by the grace of the Lord, not by anything the person does. The perons is dead in sin and if he is dead he can do nothing that is of the Lord unless the Lord quickens him to spiritual life. Untill then he is not able to do the Will of the Lord, therefore can not become 'born again'.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved😉
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Originally posted by pritybetta
Free will is not taught in the Bible, ....

Free will is the ability to know good from evil and the power of choice.

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Man, angels, Christ ... all have free will.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
a classic example of taking the bible and reaching whatever conclusion you may like.

If you are born of the Spirit, you cannot sin.
really? who is then born of the spirit? jesus yes. who else? anyone can sin, even jesus. otherwise he would not have free will. he chooses not to.

"you must be born again" doesn't mean you must have a ceremony with dud ...[text shortened]... e where you were searching for a meaning and find a new life living in accordance with god.

If you want to play the semantic game, how about "will not sin"? For all intents and purposes it's "cannot".

Matthew 7:17-18
"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."

Originally posted by duecer
Romans 7:15-25a

Romans 7:15-25
"...but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin...I do not understand...I am doing the very thing I hate...no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me...I know that nothing good dwells in me...the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not....evil is present in me...etc."

Perhaps Jesus had those like the writer of the above in mind when He said this:
Matthew 7:15-20
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits."

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
yes, but god didn't descend from heaven and told us cloning is bad or that using a condom is a sin. jesus never said "suffer not a woman to teach"
what of it is god's word truly given to men by means of holy spirit and what is man fabrication, man interpretation of the word so he could gain an advantage over his peers? who to trust when it comes to the bi ...[text shortened]... inions, different perspectives not just what a certain pope says or a rabi or an ayatollah.

Perhaps if you just read the bible,without trying to figure it out. You would better understand it. It does an excellent job of interpreting itself. It can't hurt to try, can it? 🙂

2 Peter 1:19-21
(19) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
(20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
(21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If you want to play the semantic game, how about "will not sin"? For all intents and purposes it's "cannot".

Matthew 7:17-18
"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."

will not sin is better. those that "cannot" think evil thoughts and "cannot" do evil things are machines or people without free will.

doing good means you chose between good or evil. so you considered evil for a second: evil thought. and by choosing good means you would have been able to choose evil as well. otherwise there is no need for the words choice, good, evil, free will.

Originally posted by SmoothCowboy
Perhaps if you just read the bible,without trying to figure it out. You would better understand it. It does an excellent job of interpreting itself. It can't hurt to try, can it? 🙂

2 Peter 1:19-21
(19) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn ...[text shortened]... and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

oh yes, this is an excellent proof. how could i have been so blind. i shouldn't interpret or question the bible because the bible says i shouldn't question the bible.

are you being spiritual now? because sure as hell you aren't being logical.

ThinkOfOne,

========================================
From what I can tell, sin is a product of the flesh and the Spirit is without sin. So if you are born of the flesh, you sin. If you are born of the Spirit, you cannot sin.
==============================================

Evangelical Christianity has erred in emphasizing the new birth as an end in itself. In other words many well meaning evanglists made the born again experience the "ticket" to heaven.

So naturally some in the public and in the church get the mistaken idea that a person has totally arrived at God's will by being born of the Spirit.

Birth is only a beginning - an important and crucial beginning, but a beginning of life. You should understand that birth - nearly any kind of birth, is a beginning of life.

A human birth does not result in instant maturity at the moment the body comes out of the mother's womb. There is the need for growth and maturity.

Birth is a beginning as far a living by that life is concerned.

Now in the Christian life one is used to a long lifetime of living by the Adamic fallen nature. For now we may say, living in the flesh. Then one is born again or born anew. She is spiritually regenerated thorugh receiving Jesus Christ.

The New Testament does not expect that instantly that born again person matures to live fully by that life with which they have been born. There is the need to get off of the old way of living and learn to live by the new life.

Growth, progress, maturity, development to learn to walk by the NEW life is in need. And this is what the New Testament reveals.

One example:

"As newborn babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that you may GROW unto salvation." (1 Peter 2:2)

Salvation here is spoken of as the end of a process of growth in view towards it - "grow unto salvation".

======================================
I get the impression that there are many who believe that they are "born again", yet continue to sin. Isn't that contrary to "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."?
===========================================

The new nature cannot sin because it is God Himself.

Learning to abide in, linger in, walk in step by step, and live in that nature takes time to learn.

But you are right if you mean that the new life seed is not capable of sinning. But one must grow that seed. And that usually takes a life time of growth.

And mind you that the awareness of sins also is a growing matter as the conscience becomes more and more sensitive.



====================================
It seems pretty clear that you can't be born of both at the same time. What's more "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
=========================================

The Christian, until the rapture, DOES have both the old Adamic fallen nature and the new birth divine seed which is the divine nature.

One part of his being is in the kingdom - his regenerated human spirit. Then as the Spirit of Christ spreads throughout the soul to saturate the soul more and more - gradually the kingdom life grows.

Or that person is brought more and more into that kingdom. The kingdom is a realm in which God the King can have His administrsation over the lives of men. Kingdom of God in the church age is a matter of the divine life growing and spreading.

=================================
Seems evident that those who continue to sin have not been "born of the Spirit". Those who continue to sin "cannot see the kingdom of God"
=========================================

That is not a bad thought. It is an insentive to grow unto salvation.

The sensativity of the conscience also grows though. Today I may commit 100 sins. God brings to my memory only 10 of them this evening to confess. I am aware of only 10 of those sins.


I repent, He cleanses, and He matures me. Tomorrow I become aware of 10 more of those sins which yesterday I was not aware of. And the process continues.

The light within encreases. The conscience becomes more and more keen. What seemed OK to do yesterday today offends my conscience.


The awareness of sins is related very much to the growth of the sensativty of the regenerated conscience.

It is not unlike human natural growth in this regard. We do not hold a three year old responsible for the things an eighteen year old should know.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Romans 7:15-25
"...but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin...I do not understand...I am doing the very thing I hate...no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me...I know that nothing good dwells in me...the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not....evil is present in me...etc."

Perhaps Jesus had those like the ...[text shortened]... cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 [b]So then, you will know them by their fruits."[/b]

In the passage in Rom., Paul was talking about himself. So if in Mat. 7:15-20 Jesus was refering to what Paul said in Rom., why then would Paul have been chosen to be an apostle?

Originally posted by pritybetta
In the passage in Rom., Paul was talking about himself. So if in Mat. 7:15-20 Jesus was refering to what Paul said in Rom., why then would Paul have been chosen to be an apostle?

I gathered that Paul was talking about himself.

In Matthew 7:15-20 Jesus tells how to recognize a false prophet. From the passage in Romans, it is evident that Paul fits the description of a false prophet.

In what way was Paul "chosen" to be an apostle? So far as I can tell, the only evidence that Paul was "chosen" are his own claims to have been chosen. Looking at Paul's description of himself, why would anyone find his claims credible?

Anyone can claim anything. Jesus gives guidence to help discern when those who claim to be prophets are false.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I gathered that Paul was talking about himself.

In Matthew 7:15-20 Jesus tells how to recognize a false prophet. From the passage in Romans, it is evident that Paul fits the description of a false prophet.

In what way was Paul "chosen" to be an apostle? So far as I can tell, the only evidence that Paul was "chosen" are his own claims to have been ch ything. Jesus gives guidence to help discern when those who claim to be prophets are false.

Ok , so let's think this through carefully now. Would an active living God allow his church to be built on the back of a false prophet? Why would God allow Jesus's message to be so distorted by St Paul? Don't you think God could have inspired someone else at the time to challenge St Paul and take his place in the Bible and restore the truth?

It makes no sense against the context of an active living God who has the power to influence and guide via his Spirit (as Jesus taught).

You view does not hold together.

Some of the greatest revelations and truth in the Bible do not come from Jesus's lips . For example ....

adapted from John's 1st letter to the Corinthians, chapter 13

I could speak in tongues of men and angels,
But if I have not love,
Then my voice is a clash of brass and clanging bells,
Just tongue-tied stammering.

I could predict the future, all truth possess,
But if I have not love,
Then my knowledge means little, my words mean less,


And my truth means not a thing.

I could give all I have to others.
I could give my body to be burned.
Without love all my sacrifice means nothing,
My gift is spurned.

Love is patient, and love is kind.
Love does not waver and it doesn't stray.
Love's not proud, love does not insist
On having it's own way.

Love is strong, it protects and it defends.
It turns from wrong, and rejoices in the right.
Love endures all things, love forgives all things.
Love is hope, and love is light.

Love never fails.
As for prophecies, they will all pass away.
Tongues will cease. And all knowledge will fade.
My worldly sight is dim.
True vision comes from Him.

When perfection comes to reign
All that's imperfect disappears.
But three things forever will remain:
Faith, hope, and love.
And the greatest of these is love.
God's greatest gift is love.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I gathered that Paul was talking about himself.

In Matthew 7:15-20 Jesus tells how to recognize a false prophet. From the passage in Romans, it is evident that Paul fits the description of a false prophet.

In what way was Paul "chosen" to be an apostle? So far as I can tell, the only evidence that Paul was "chosen" are his own claims to have been ch ...[text shortened]... ything. Jesus gives guidence to help discern when those who claim to be prophets are false.

Read Acts. 😉

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Romans 7:15-25
"...but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin...I do not understand...I am doing the very thing I hate...no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me...I know that nothing good dwells in me...the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not....evil is present in me...etc."

Perhaps Jesus had those like the ...[text shortened]... cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 [b]So then, you will know them by their fruits."[/b]

"Perhaps Jesus had those like the writer of the above in mind when He said this:"

Idiotic. Reprobate.

1Co 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

This is from the same writer. How can you suggest that Paul is a false prophet? It is because you are a deceived. You preach that one must follow the teachings of Jesus when you don't. You can't, and you never will.

Originally posted by jaywill
ThinkOfOne,

[b]========================================
From what I can tell, sin is a product of the flesh and the Spirit is without sin. So if you are born of the flesh, you sin. If you are born of the Spirit, you cannot sin.
==============================================

Evangelical Christianity has erred in emphasizing the new birth as an three year old responsible for the things an eighteen year old should know.[/b]

Let's look at what Jesus teaches instead of what others teach. How radical it would be to actually follow the teachings of Jesus.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever;"
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
Jesus has set up a dichotomy here. If you commit sin, you are a slave. It is an either/or situation. You cannot be a semi-slave. You cannot continue to sin and have "eternal life"/"heaven"/"salvation". This idea is echoed several times throughout His teachings.

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it."
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
This time Jesus uses the analogy of death and rebirth. The first life is one of the flesh. It is this life that you must chose to put to death. You cannot be semi-dead. You must entirely loose the life of the flesh. Only then can you be reborn of the Spirit.

"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."
You are either a good tree that produces good fruit or you are a bad tree that produces bad fruit. You cannot simutaneously be a good tree and a bad tree.

You have reasons for believing as you do. The reasons are NOT based on the teachings of Jesus. Instead you chose to follow the teachings of others.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Ok , so let's think this through carefully now. Would an active living God allow his church to be built on the back of a false prophet? Why would God allow Jesus's message to be so distorted by St Paul? Don't you think God could have inspired someone else at the time to challenge St Paul and take his place in the Bible and restore the truth?

It mak ...[text shortened]... ith, hope, and love.
And the greatest of these is love.
God's greatest gift is love.

Read what Paul says and then read what Jesus says and discuss what's here instead of pointing elsewhere as you usually do.


Romans 7:15-25
"...but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin...I do not understand...I am doing the very thing I hate...no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me...I know that nothing good dwells in me...the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not....evil is present in me...etc."

Matthew 7:15-20
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits."