Originally posted by knightmeister Just curious....how many atheists are there out there who have NOT been brought up to believe? It seems to me that many of the Atheists here have been brought up in churches or Christian families.
This is not to say that this discredits their position per se , but it's an interesting fact that many of them seem to be consciously / unconsciously reb ...[text shortened]... eal Christianity.
Is it a pre-requisite of being an Atheist that you went to Sunday school?
I think anyone that thinks atheists might generally become atheists just because they want to “rebel” against either theists or a religious establishment or both is just being delusional.
Generally, atheists are atheists simply because of the absence of evidence for the existence of any “god”. When I was a child, both my parents where theists, and yet, even then, I didn’t believe them when the told be that “god” exists simply because of the absence of evidence of any “god” -I was not “rebelling” against them. Rational people generally don’t “choose” to believe the exact opposite of somebody they are rebelling against and this is because rational people don’t “choose” their beliefs but rather try and let logical deduction and the evidence determine their beliefs. I do not “choose” to disbelieve in the existence of any “god” for the same reason I do not “choose” to disbelieve 1+1=8 or that there is a Santa.
Eventually, both my parents became atheists! But, again, they didn’t become atheists because they were trying to “rebel”- they simply started to question the bases of their beliefs.
Originally posted by AThousandYoung Children brought up in religious households are overrepresented everywhere. You're focussing on atheists, so you see the pattern with respect for them, but really, you guys have your claws in most little kids' upbringing.
All I'm saying is that I bet agnostic parents are less likely to produce Atheist children.
I see you come up with zany questions from time to time.
Are you referring to the time that you claimed to have a degree in computer science and I asked you what the difference is between two particular classes of theoretical finite state machines, which you did not answer?
There is no way in hell you have a B.S. in computer science, unless you got it from Bob Jones University or something. You don't have the analytical chops for it. Consider that another position that I am taking.
Originally posted by jaywill If you're concerned about absurdity consider some of the goofy comments and topics you make on the Forum.
Consider why I make them. The difference between the absurd stuff I post and the absurd stuff you post is that the absurdity of mine is merely an artful veil, seductively disguising the actual points I wish to make, while the meaning of yours is the absurdity itself, naked and ugly for all to smirk at.
Originally posted by DoctorScribbles Consider why I make them. The difference between the absurd stuff I post and the absurd stuff you post is that the absurdity of mine is merely an artful veil, seductively disguising the actual points I wish to make, while the meaning of yours is the absurdity itself, naked and ugly for all to smirk at.
Originally posted by jaywill My "idea" was a question.
I don't think the question was absurd.
If a parent passes on to a child certain teachings, does that NECESSARILY make those teachings not true?
Consider how ridiculous that would be. Parent A in house A passes on to his child the teaching that Jesus rose from the dead. Next door, in house B, parent B passes on to her child the teaching that it is not the case that Jesus rose from the dead. So now, if the teachings a parent passed on to a child were simply thereby necessarily mistaken, it seems we would have here a logically impossible state of affairs in which it both is and is not the case that Jesus rose from the dead. This is just one example of many that we could quickly think up. So, yeah, super absurd question in that regard. I actually thought you were joking when you first posed it.
Originally posted by knightmeister All I'm saying is that sometimes it seems as if the "Atheists who were once Christians or brought up in a church environment" are over represented around here. It just makes me suspicious.
It's human nature that we like to think we are more objective than we actually are. Many Atheists seem to think that Christians have emotional reasons for being ...[text shortened]... do I spend anytime on forums attacking those who love Santa , it's just not on my radar.
I am having trouble understanding what you are really trying to say.
Anyway, you should avoid thinking that all atheism stems from a rebellion against upbringing. I don't harbor any strong sentiments like that against my childhood milieu. Yes, my parents are Christians and church-goers (my situation in that regard is pretty common in the US), but they never "chucked" anything down my throat.
Originally posted by LemonJello I am having trouble understanding what you are really trying to say.
Anyway, you should avoid thinking that all atheism stems from a rebellion against upbringing. I don't harbor any strong sentiments like that against my childhood milieu. Yes, my parents are Christians and church-goers (my situation in that regard is pretty common in the US), but the ...[text shortened]... ever "chucked" anything down my throat.
Also, what do you mean by "emotional reasons"?
Anyway, you should avoid thinking that all atheism stems from a rebellion against upbringing. --lemon----
I didn't say that , I'm just pointing out that many Atheists I come across appear to have been put off by having had religious parents.
It's human nature for children to define themselves in relation to their parents , either through a reaction to them or conformity to them.
It seems to me that well over 80-90% of atheists around here have some religious upbringing.
Originally posted by knightmeister Anyway, you should avoid thinking that all atheism stems from a rebellion against upbringing. --lemon----
I didn't say that , I'm just pointing out that many Atheists I come across appear to have been put off by having had religious parents.
It's human nature for children to define themselves in relation to their parents , either through a react ...[text shortened]... It seems to me that well over 80-90% of atheists around here have some religious upbringing.
I didn't say that , I'm just pointing out that many Atheists I come across appear to have been put off by having had religious parents.
Um, okay. I'm not sure why I should find that interesting. Most of the atheists I talk to cite lack of evidence for theism -- not reaction toward their upbringing. Anyway, I could see why an off-putting upbringing could help shape a certain attitude toward theists, but could you explain how that is supposed to fully support an absence of theistic belief? Generally speaking, won't there also be evidentiary considerations, and won't these really be what undergirds the atheism?
What did you mean by "emotional reasons"? I used to place too much emphasis on pragmatic reasons as explanation for theistic belief, but I have come to place the emphasis on evidentiary considerations when it comes to theism. But I think theists often misfire on what they take as evidence for theism.
Well here is what I was brought up to believe. Understand my mother was orthodox Jew my father full blood Apache, The great grand son of Cochise.
Well to make a long story short my fathers beliefs won.
We Apache believe. The Great Creator, Breath into all life forms giving each a spirit, Trees, rivers, animals ect. Only Man was given conscience ( soul) a mind to know right from wrong. We believe that when we die our soul goes back to the Creator and our spirit stays around to comfort the descendants. ( so in a way we apache's do believe in seeing "dead people" In fact to us it is perfectly normal to speak to the departed and have them protect us.
We believe in pray we pray before a pow wow, and the meal that is usually following it. We pray during sweat lodges,To us the eagle takes our prays up to the creator. All life is sacred to us. We only took what we needed to eat. We pass on our history through stories. Like the rainbow woman and the painted bunting. Or how turkey vulture gave all the bird their clothing. and many others. Lullabies where often stories about the person who sang them family. My grandmother told of her grandfather Cochise in her songs to me. There are many ceremonies
we do for different parts of our walk in the Creators ways on mother earth. Many are misinterpreted to come out that we do not believe in "Christ" We do, but it is the Christianity we have trouble with . After all the "missionaries" sent to convert the savages with out understanding of the culture like they tried with the Hawaiians and the Hula. Did not see that dances are our way of worship. ceremonies celebrate differnet things in our life always to give praise to the creator for each thing we dance for or have the celebration for. I have issues with Christianity when most shove gen-rev down ones throat it is usually not well received. Not to mention taking of a language and forcing the women and children in to boarding schools to learn Christianity ( no offense here ) and White man ways. The Chiricahua where the last to be placed on a reservation we also have kept our beliefs and language at great cost.. Until WWII when they used the Navajo and Apaches for code talkers ( we have a similar dialect) My father was not enlisted but he taught demolitions to ppl and worked in the oilfields as a demolitions expert until he went to their mechanic. Anyway that is a bit of rambling. If anyone is interested cause I don't want to bore you to death. I will share some of the ceremonies and what they mean. When I was 21 I converted as my mother said after attending Teen challenge. I do believe in Christ as my saviour, but till I see what I truly believe is what Jesus was teaching communion to all to the Creator. Then I will not have issues with Christianity. When you go to Christ you come Just as I am, dirty soiled and He does the cleaning. So when I see Jesus ministring to the "Undesirable" the leopare the harlet. I know that he would be highly upset with the Modern Church for not allowing Gays, lebians and others to obtain communion with him. I like what one minister said ( elder Don De Grate) You dont go to a bath clean you go dirty that is same we we come to Him.
I believe more in that indigenous American ways of thinking as far as all have a right to speak with the Creator and He speak back.
Brought up to believe?
18 Jul '08 08:54
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