12 May '10 11:56>
If reality transcends logic (according to the Buddhist viewpoint), then why can math accurately predict and model nature's motion?
Originally posted by BeyerIt seems to me you are not well versed neither about quantum mechanics nor about the Buddhist philosophy!
If reality transcends logic (according to the Buddhist viewpoint), then why can math accurately predict and model nature's motion?
Originally posted by black beetleIs this something you get from Buddhism? Something you guessed? Or where did it come from? It certainly is not a known scientific result.
.. but this is false because the universe is not completely mathematical and isomorphic to a specific mathematical structure.
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou can start with Hut, Alford and Tegmark with the paper "On Math, Matter and Mind" at http://www.sns.ias.edu/~piet/publ/other/mmm.pdf
Is this something you get from Buddhism? Something you guessed? Or where did it come from? It certainly is not a known scientific result.
Originally posted by black beetleI am not sure how any of that translates to the claim you made earlier.
Of course this thesis I offered earlier is known to several Buddhist systems too; the meditators are aware of the fact that they have to know the difference between apparent and genuine reality (this approach is known as two truths), and they have to conduct discrimination between the way the phenomena appear and the way they really are. So the Buddists ...[text shortened]... superposition, interdependence and wavefunction. Even the Mandalas are depictions of atoms!
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Originally posted by black beetleThis paper seems like it was fun to write, but it also seems to boil down to quite a bit of navel-gazing and spit-balling. For a much better discussion of math, matter and mind, I highly recommend Douglas Hofstadter's "I Am A Strange Loop" (in some ways a sequel to his Pulitzer Prize-winning "Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid", in that it clarifies the message of his previous work).
You can start with Hut, Alford and Tegmark with the paper "On Math, Matter and Mind" at http://www.sns.ias.edu/~piet/publ/other/mmm.pdf
Originally posted by black beetleI am reading "An Introduction to Zen Buddhism", and the author, D.T. Suzuki, seems fairly avid to point out that logic is a barrier to penetrate through for satori to be experienced. This is exemplified by koans throughout the book. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought their purpose was to break a person's fixation on logic?
It seems to me you are not well versed neither about quantum mechanics nor about the Buddhist philosophy!
At first, reality does not transcend logic -it transcends the delusional concepts and the delusional mental fabrications. Furthermore, the universe is in no sense classically mathematical -neither the way the Pythagoreans were claiming nor accord ...[text shortened]... otice from Lulu.com regarding its availability. I strongly believe you should give it a try😵
Originally posted by BeyerThe koans are not based on illogical concepts but on the necessity of bringing on the fact that the phenomenal reality has no inherent being. Transcending dualism in the Zennist tradition is not related to "breaking a person's fixation on logic" but to "breaking a person's dualist fixation on the attachment in the phenomena". This is the reason why Suzuki points out at his "Introduction to Zen Buddhism" (Grove Press, N.Y. 1964, page 88) that "..satori is the bringing forth/ development of a world that was not grasped by the dualist mind". This means that the shifting of the point of attention of the enlightened (non delusional) person (who has a satori) is not related to a conceptualised understanding but to her/ his non-conceptual awareness.
I am reading "An Introduction to Zen Buddhism", and the author, D.T. Suzuki, seems fairly avid to point out that logic is a barrier to penetrate through for satori to be experienced. This is exemplified by koans throughout the book. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought their purpose was to break a person's fixation on logic?
Newtonian physics and quantum mec ...[text shortened]... uestion is, if reality does not depend on logic, then why does logic describe it so well?
Originally posted by PBE6Thank you, I will try to read both;
This paper seems like it was fun to write, but it also seems to boil down to quite a bit of navel-gazing and spit-balling. For a much better discussion of math, matter and mind, I highly recommend Douglas Hofstadter's "I Am A Strange Loop" (in some ways a sequel to his Pulitzer Prize-winning "Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid", in that it clarifies the message of his previous work).
Originally posted by BeyerBeen a long time since I read D.T., so really can’t comment on how he uses terms.
I am reading "An Introduction to Zen Buddhism", and the author, D.T. Suzuki, seems fairly avid to point out that logic is a barrier to penetrate through for satori to be experienced. This is exemplified by koans throughout the book. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought their purpose was to break a person's fixation on logic?
Newtonian physics and quantum mec ...[text shortened]... uestion is, if reality does not depend on logic, then why does logic describe it so well?
Originally posted by vistesdIt is silly to describe a gulfstream without reference or awareness of the ocean. Indeed, it's actually impossible to! By removing the ocean, the gulfstream is a different thing entirely.
An analogy: one cannot separate the gulfstream from the ocean in order to study the “beingness” of the “gulfstream-itself”. This is not to say that the gulfstream is not an actual phenomenon. But it has no “inherent being” separate from the ocean, of which it is.
I don’t think that even in the Western canon of philosophy, to say that reali ...[text shortened]... me as saying that logic is violated. Logic is a truth-preserving way of thinking about reality.
Originally posted by ua41Agreed on all points. The analogy was an attempt to point up that kind of absurdity from a non-dualist point of view.
It is silly to describe a gulfstream without reference or awareness of the ocean. Indeed, it's actually impossible to! By removing the ocean, the gulfstream is a different thing entirely.
And yes. Logic is just a human measurement, a system of checks if you will. Nature doesn't necessarily follow it as it gives rise to it.