Caljust's Objections / The local church

Originally posted by RJHinds
I was only speaking against the teachings of Witness Lee, so you don't have to defend Watchman Nee.

From The Glorious Church by Watchman Nee

We can also see these two sets of garments for the Christian in Psalm 45. Verse 13 says, "The King's daughter is all glorious within the royal abode;/Her garment is a woven work inwrought with gold." The material of her clothing is gold, beaten gold. Then verse 14 says, "She will be led to the King in embroidered clothing." The clothing mentioned in verse 13 differs from that in verse 14. In verse 13 the clothing is of gold, but in verse 14 the clothing is of embroidered work. The fine linen garments in Revelation 19 are embroidered, they are not of gold.

What then is gold? The Lord Jesus is gold. He is gold because He is entirely of God. The righteousness which the Lord Jesus gave us, the clothing which He put upon us when we were saved was something of gold. Besides this clothing, we have been embroidering another garment from the day we received our salvation. This relates to the righteous acts of the saints. In other words, the clothing of gold is given to us by God through the Lord Jesus, while the clothing of embroidered work is given to us by the Lord Jesus through the Holy Spirit. When we believed in the Lord, God gave us a gold garment through the Lord Jesus. This garment is the Lord Jesus Himself, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with our conduct. It was furnished by Him, ready-made. The embroidered garment, however, is related to our deeds. It is wrought one stitch at a time by the working of the Holy Spirit in us day by day.

What is the meaning of embroidery? Originally, there is a plain piece of material with nothing upon it. Later, something is sewed into it with thread, and by this sewing work, the original material and the thread become one. This means that when the Spirit of God works upon us, He constitutes Christ into us—this is the embroidery work. Then we will not only have a garment of gold, but also a garment embroidered by the Holy Spirit. By this work Christ will be constituted in us and expressed from us. This embroidered garment is the righteous acts of the saints. It is not done once for all, but repeatedly carried on day after day until God says that it is ready.

[My Bold]

Originally posted by RJHinds
There is a Watchman Nee and a Witness Lee. It is the teachings of Witness Lee that many have trouble with.

From "Christ Becomming Our Wisdom" by Watchman Nee

The Bible speaks of Christ as our life in many ways. But the meaning of the words "Christ is our life" is not that simple. First Corinthians 1:30 explains what Christ as our life means. This passage can be divided into two sections. The first section says, "But of Him you are in Christ Jesus." This speaks of our relationship with Christ. The second section says, "Who became wisdom to us from God." This speaks of Christ's relationship with us. Putting it another way, this verse speaks of how we are in Christ and also how Christ is in us. We must pay attention to these two things. Some Christians emphasize only the first of these two aspects, while others emphasize only the second aspect. Whether one emphasizes the first aspect or the second, any bias will result in problems and sickness to our Christian life. We must have a proper knowledge of both aspects. We must know how we can be in Christ and how Christ can be in us.

God has given us the Lord Jesus. His purpose is not for Him to be our teacher or a pattern that we follow, but for us to take Him as our life, so that His life can be manifested through us. If we do not have the life of Christ, we cannot be a Christian. If we have the life of Christ but do not know how this life has become our life, we cannot be a proper Christian and readily manifest His life. How then can we have Christ as our life? This is a very basic question. The Lord Jesus is God, and He is also a man. How can we have Him as our life? This seems to be impossible. We can never solve this problem. Only God can solve this problem. God is able to do what man cannot do. First Corinthians 1:30 tells us that this work has been accomplished by God alone. If God had not done this work, it would have been impossible for Christ to become our life. The first part of this verse says, "But of Him you are in Christ Jesus." The first part of the work was done by God. The second part says, "Who became wisdom to us from God." The second part of the work was also done by God. We cannot make the Lord Jesus our wisdom; He "became wisdom to us from God." Hence, Christ as our life is something that God Himself has done. Whether it is the first or the second part, nothing is possible apart from God, and nothing will be accomplished apart from God. God has made Christ our life.

[My bolding]

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=2693CB

Originally posted by RJHinds
I was only speaking against the teachings of Witness Lee, so you don't have to defend Watchman Nee.

From Christ Is All Spiritual Things By Watchman Nee

[Also translated and published under the name Christ the Sum of All Spiritual Things.]

Scripture Reading: John 14:6

The Lord Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life” (KJV). This shows us something very clearly. What is the way that God has given us? It is Christ. What is the truth that God has given us? It is Christ. What is the life that God has given us? It is Christ. Christ is our way, Christ is our truth, and Christ is our life. Through Christ we go to the Father. In God’s eyes, everything that has to do with God is Christ, who is His Son. This is why our Lord said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.” What God has given us is just Christ; He has not given us many things apart from Christ. Many times, in spiritual matters, we see only things, and what we touch are merely things. These things are merely terms and letters to us; they do not have any spiritual value. May the Lord open our eyes so that we may know the Son of God. The characteristic of Christianity, the root of Christianity, and all its depth and riches are contained in the knowledge of the Son of God. It is not a matter of how many methods we know or how many doctrines we have or how much power we possess. It is a matter of how much we know God’s Son. If we know God’s Son, we have the way, we have the truth, and we have the life. Our power comes from our knowledge of the Son of God. God has given us His Son, not many individual items apart from His Son. The crux of the matter lies in our knowledge of the Son of God. Let us now consider the meaning of “I am the way, the truth, and the life.”

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=26

Originally posted by sonship
From [b] Christ Is All Spiritual Things By Watchman Nee

[Also translated and published under the name Christ the Sum of All Spiritual Things.]

Scripture Reading: John 14:6

The Lord Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life” (KJV). This shows us something very clearly. What is the way that God has given us? It is Christ ...[text shortened]... am the way, the truth, and the life.”

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=26[/b]

I believe this can be summed up with the fact that we must believe in and trust in the Lord Jesus for our salvation. We can not save ourselves.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I believe this can be summed up with the fact that we must believe in and trust in the Lord Jesus for our salvation. We can not save ourselves.

But where is your great difference between Watchman Nee whom you say you approve and Witness Lee whom you fear of false teaching ?

You're imagining a great difference. It is a product of your imagination that they taught differently on the essentials of Christian faith and church building.

I was only speaking against the teachings of Witness Lee, so you don't have to defend Watchman Nee.

- RJHinds

Copied from the Thread on W.L. honored in Congress.

Hymn #490, stanza 5

AUTHOR: Watchman Nee
COMPOSER: John B. Dykes

1 Lord, when the Father ne’er was known,
The Father came through Thee below,
That we who lived in ignorance
Might through Thyself the Father know.

2 But, Lord, when Thou wast here on earth,
How scarce were those Thyself who knew;
A veil there was ‘twixt Thee and them;
They crowded ‘round, but saw not through.

3 Now as the Spirit Thou hast come
E:’en as the Father came in Thee;
As we through Thee the Father know,
Now through the Spirit we know Thee.

4 Not with the flesh Thou now art clothed-
Then must Thou walk with toil around;
But as the Spirit in our heart
Thou dost supply Thyself unbound.

5 Thou, Lord, the Father once wast called,
But now.the Holy Spirit art;
The Spirit is Thine other form,
Thyself to dwell within our heart.

6 By knowing Thee as Spirit, Lord,
We realize Thy life’s outflow,
Thy glory and Thy character,
And all Thy being’s wonders know.

7 Praise to Thy Name now floods our heart;
There is no one as dear as Thee;
For since we know how real Thou art,
No other one could lovelier be.

Originally posted by sonship
But where is your great difference between Watchman Nee whom you say you approve and Witness Lee whom you fear of false teaching ?

You're imagining a great difference. It is a product of your imagination that they taught differently on the essentials of Christian faith and church building.

I do not know all that Watchman Nee taught. I only heard that the problems came about with the teachings of Witness Lee. I do not know if Watchman Nee also taught that the Son was the very same Father, or that Tritheism and Modalism are both Biblical.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I do not know all that Watchman Nee taught. I only heard that the problems came about with the teachings of Witness Lee. I do not know if Watchman Nee also taught that the Son was the very same Father, or that Tritheism and Modalism are both Biblical.

How would you feel if I wrote that -
" I don't know if you teach Day Age Theory or Gap Theory" ?

Would it sound like a genuine admission of incomplete knowledge or like I am looking for a vague escape hatch to get out of a conversation ?

I think it would sound like I was tired of debating but didn't want to admit that I was wrong about knowing what your thoughts were on Genesis 1.

Originally posted by sonship
How would you feel if I wrote that -
" I don't know if you teach Day Age Theory or Gap Theory" ?

Would it sound like a genuine admission of incomplete knowledge or like I am looking for a vague escape hatch to get out of a conversation ?

I think it would sound like I was tired of debating but didn't want to admit that I was wrong about knowing what your thoughts were on Genesis 1.

Well the fact is that a ten year pupil of Witness Lee said that Lee bragged about being able to teach contradictory things and get away with it. He says that Lee taught Tritheism in one lecture and then taught modalism in another lecture and claimed they were both Biblical.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Well the fact is that a ten year pupil of Witness Lee said that Lee bragged about being able to teach contradictory things and get away with it. He says that Lee taught Tritheism in one lecture and then taught modalism in another lecture and claimed they were both Biblical.

You need to do some reading and studying.

I can come away from this Forum and say -
"Well, someone said THIS about RJHinds.
And someone else said THAT about RJHinds.
And then someone said the OTHER about RJHinds.

MY, I get the impression that RJHinds is really bad news as a teacher."

But by me carefully going through your posts I could get an idea firsthand what your thoughts were and not just go by second hand hearsay.

Christianity is filled with disgruntled people claiming that this preacher or that pastor did some dirt. To base everything on hearsay like this can be a lazy way of excusing yourself the need to really grasp a person's teachings.

So you have repeated this second hand hearsay a few times now. If this is all you have to complain about, it is not that important.

Couldn't anyone just say "You should see what they said about RJHinds here after following his teachings for a few years." ?

Second hand reports by disgruntled former pupils is not all that impressive.
Could be just his subjective impression largely based on his own unhappy mood.

Originally posted by sonship
You need to do some reading and studying.

I can come away from this Forum and say -
"Well, someone said THIS about RJHinds.
And someone else said THAT about RJHinds.
And then someone said the OTHER about RJHinds.

MY, I get the impression that RJHinds is really bad news as a teacher."

But by me carefully going through your posts I could g ...[text shortened]... at impressive.
Could be just his subjective impression largely based on his own unhappy mood.

You have already admitted to the fact that Witness Lee did teach those quotes from his publications, so that gives some credibility to testimony on the internet of the ten year pupil of Witness Lee. It is always possible that my understanding is wrong, but at the present time I believe those teachings by Witness Lee are heretical teachings.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You have already admitted to the fact that Witness Lee did teach those quotes from his publications, so that gives some credibility to testimony on the internet of the ten year pupil of Witness Lee. It is always possible that my understanding is wrong, but at the present time I believe those teachings by Witness Lee are heretical teachings.

Former cult fighters decided to study the materials, which you have never done. Six years of study and travel prompted them to admit "We Were Wrong."


Buy a copy from CRI's books store. The magazine Christian Journal from Christian Research Institute wants you to know.

That's you they want to know.

http://www.equipresources.org/site/apps/ka/ec/product.asp?c=muI1LaMNJrE&b=2537845&en=fjJNLXMJIgKMKXOOLlLMJ5OUJqJXL0NFIjI3KaORJtJ9H&ProductID=762607

Originally posted by RJHinds
You have already admitted to the fact that Witness Lee did teach those quotes from his publications, so that gives some credibility to testimony on the internet of the ten year pupil of Witness Lee. It is always possible that my understanding is wrong, but at the present time I believe those teachings by Witness Lee are heretical teachings.

Unberean mind! Sorry

Originally posted by Kevin Lee Poracan
Unberean mind! Sorry

I am sorry for you too.

Originally posted by sonship
Former cult fighters decided to study the materials, which you have never done. Six years of study and travel prompted them to admit [b]"We Were Wrong."


Buy a copy from CRI's books store. The magazine Christian Journal from Christian Research Institute wants you to know.

That's you they want to know.

http://ww ...[text shortened]... ct.asp?c=muI1LaMNJrE&b=2537845&en=fjJNLXMJIgKMKXOOLlLMJ5OUJqJXL0NFIjI3KaORJtJ9H&ProductID=762607[/b]

How can I trust researchers who do clumsy work?