Caljust's Objections / The local church

Originally posted by sonship
Could you explain what this post means ?

I thought it was obvious - instead of answering my very simple and well reasoned questions, (even after clarifying exactly where we DO agree) you simply ignore that and repeat your dogmatic statements.

At that point I get bored with playing ping-pong and check out of the conversation.

HOWEVER, you then went back to the thread and posted a "blank" comment. For THAT reason only, I thought maybe you had a change of heart and were prepared to respond in a logical and reasonable manner to what I felt was a very simple statement.

But if, in response to this, you again chose to rather cover two or three pages with quotations from the bible and Witness Lee's books, I will definitely NOT waste my time with you anymore.

Originally posted by CalJust
I thought it was obvious - instead of answering my very simple and well reasoned questions, (even after clarifying exactly where we DO agree) you simply ignore that and repeat your dogmatic statements.

At that point I get bored with playing ping-pong and check out of the conversation.

HOWEVER, you then went back to the thread and posted a "blank" comm ...[text shortened]... ns from the bible and Witness Lee's books, I will definitely NOT waste my time with you anymore.

So you want to talk but you don't want to waste your time then?

And what you define as a waste of your time is quotations from the Bible or references to something perhaps Witness said, WHILE Witness Lee is the person you wish to cast your accusations toward.

Isn't that kind of saying, you're willing to talk but with certain qualifications which allow your concepts to be unexamined in light of Scripture, perhaps, and your accusing of Witness Lee to stand unchallenged?

This seems too cowardly as a way to jury rig the discussion.

You have quite a lot that I have not discussed yet. When I sensed you wish to discontinue, my labors were turned to other discussions in my limited time.

But as to your last little point about starting a movement - Okay, I'll give some reply -

No Christians are above starting a movement. That would include myself. However, I believe there is such a thing as the moving of God, I think. Or we might say a move of God. IE. The recovery of "justification by faith" utilizing brother Martin Luther, I think was a move of God.

I do not think God STOPPED His moving to recover damaged truth with the Reformation. I believe that He is moving on. I believe He is still significantly recovering truths that were subtly buried by His enemy.

He is recovering today the Body life in reality and practicality. And to do this He has to have the recovered local church ground.

I think some of us are participating in a move of God.

Originally posted by sonship
No Christians are above starting a movement. That would include myself. However, I believe there is such a thing as the moving of God, I think. Or we might say a move of God.

I do not think God STOPPED His moving to recover damaged truth with the Reformation. I believe that He is moving on. I believe He is still significantly recovering truths

I guess this is probably as close as we will get to you admitting that you (of course not you personally, but "you" plural) have started a new movement, or more colloquially known as a denomination. Thank you for that - that is all that I wanted.

To clarify: I do not think that it is a waste of time to talk about God's word or points of doctrine. What IS a waste of time is for each side to just repeat over and over again their own verses and how they interpret them.

And this is exactly what is happening between you and RJH in the other several threads where you are still discussing the same topics, i.e. the Trinity and your various views about it. Do you seriously feel that you are making any progress?

So I think we can now safely shut this thread down, and may it rest in peace.

Originally posted by CalJust

I guess this is probably as close as we will get to you admitting that you (of course not you personally, but "you" plural) have started a new movement, or more colloquially known as a denomination. Thank you for that - that is all that I wanted.

This loaded question, somewhat like, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" is not that impressive.

What I see in your accusation is similar to the Jews who remained in the dispersion in Babylon accusing those whose spirit God stirred up to return to the good land and Jerusalem, of "starting a new nation of Israel."

Some of the spirits of the captives were stirred up to return to the proper ground of the nation -

" Then the heads of the fathers' houses of Judah and Benjamin and and the priests and the Levites rose up, even everyone whose spirit God had stirred up to go up to build the house of Jehovah, which is in Jerusalem." (Ezra 1:5)

We praise God that in the recovery today some of us have had our spirits stirred up to return in so many cities around the globe to rebuild the local churches.

I do believe the history of the church is reflected in the history of Israel in the OT. The NT said all those things were written for our admonition.

"Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our admonition, unto whom the ends of the ages have come." ( 2 Cor. 10:11)

The books of Haggai, Ezra, Nehemiah, and Zechariah (what some call the recovery books) have uncanny similarities to this present move of the Spirit to bring some of us back from the jungles of denominationalism and divisions. We have been well equipped by revelation for the kinds of misunderstandings and even accusations that you wish to make.

And like the saints in the recovery then, we also realize that you may leave Babylon but Babylon is not that easy to get out of our blood.

So your word is not a discouragement to me in the least. Those closests to the good land in a kind of halfway situation were some of the most fierce critics of the returning Hebrews (Ezra 4:1-24).

Just as the people then sought to "weaken the hands of the people of Judah and troubled them in building" (Ezra 4:4) so some in the free groups seek to hurl accusations of the kind you are fashioning.

They wanted to build too. Yet they somehow were adversaries in disquise.

"Now when the adversaries of Judah and Benjamin heard that the children of the captivity were building a temple to Jehovah the God of Israel, they drew near to Zerubbabel and to the heads of the fathers' houses and said to them, Let us build with you; for we seek your God as you do, and we have been sacrificing to Him since the days of Esarhaddon the king of Assyria, who brought us up here.

But Zerubbabel and Jeshua and the rest of the heads of fathers' houses of Isreael said to them, You have nothing to do with us in building a house to our God; But we ourselves together will build to Jehovah the God of Israel, as KIng Cyrus the king of Persia has commanded us." (Ezra 4:2,3)

The subtlety of the opposition of the deceived, to the recovery of the Lord's testimony then is very much the same today. Thank God He has shown us the light and armed us against the kind of weakening tactics the enemy in our flesh dusts off and reuses, influencing the minds even of some of the Lord's children, in today's recovery.

And as then so now - "And they hired counselors against them to frustrate their purpose all the days of Cyrus the king of Persia, even until the reign of Darius the king of Persia." (v.5)

We except that evil reports will go out and counselors will be hired to try to stop the recovery of the ground of the church life from being accomplished.

Accusations of "just starting another denomination" are like the opposition to the recovery in Ezra's time.

To clarify: I do not think that it is a waste of time to talk about God's word or points of doctrine. What IS a waste of time is for each side to just repeat over and over again their own verses and how they interpret them.

I don't know. Some repetition helps people reading along. How much do we write here always to convince the one debating? Not much. Usually a good debate seeks to persuade someone in the observing audience of the validity of some view held.

And this is exactly what is happening between you and RJH in the other several threads where you are still discussing the same topics, i.e. the Trinity and your various views about it. Do you seriously feel that you are making any progress?

So I think we can now safely shut this thread down, and may it rest in peace.

You can try to do that again if you like. But you may be back again yet.
As for RJHinds and I on his accusations of false teachings on the Trinity? Consult with him and see how he feels.

Originally posted by CalJust
P.S. EVERY single "reformer" who started a new movement did so with the sincere intention of bringing the church "back to the TRUE DOCTRINE", and to "restore something that had been lost".

Your long explanation says exactly that: it eloquently describes how you differentiate yourself, and what "lost" teaching has been restored.

To any objective outside ...[text shortened]... is now another denomination on the block.

That is all there is, nothing more, nothing less.

I know it isn't a small thing when people within churchs divide
themselves for many stupid reasons, or refuse to come together. I read
a story where two little churches wanted to combine and they had ironed
out all doctrine except one point. One body of believers wanted hang
their hat on:

"forgive us our debts"

The other part of that would be body wanted:

"And forgive us our sins"

When they could not agree they stayed apart, the local paper wrote about
them saying that one group when back to their sins, the others their
debts.

I'm of the opinon that if you are walking with God following the Spirit,
much of this stuff will be put into proper perspective. If we get bent out
of shape over something so small, well we deserve what we get. I don't
feel the need to join a super church, I God knows His own and the steps
of a righteous man are ordered by the Lord. He can work it out, in His
Spirit we are one anyway.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay

I'm of the opinon that if you are walking with God following the Spirit,
much of this stuff will be put into proper perspective. If we get bent out
of shape over something so small, well we deserve what we get. I don't
feel the need to join a super church, I God knows His own and the steps
of a righteous man are ordered by the Lord. He can work it out, in His
Spirit we are one anyway.
Kelly

Meeting on the ground of the local church we were helped by several facets which energize Christians is to be one.

For one we see that this crushed the enemy Satan under our feet. Then ALL members of the assembly benefit. For Satan does not care that much about you or I individually. But the building up of the Body in practicality scares him. For that is what is going to put him in the abyss and then in the lake of fire.

As you say exactly, the Spirit is the uniting bond of peace. The Spirit is Christ Himself as our peace. And He is the HEAD that we are exhorted to hold fast - a living Person.

" ... holding the Head, out from whom all the Body; being richly supplied and knit together by means of the joints and sinews, grows with the growth of God." (Col. 2:19)

If members have to die to themselves they are not left with nothing. They have a glorious leftover - Jesus Christ. If members have to lay down their opinion, they can survive because Christ growing in them is the bulding material for the Lord's "organic" Body.

The Holy Spirit will eventually have the last say. But we should hold fast to the living Person, the living Christ. Out from this living One all the body is richly supplied. And the growth of God within the members commences.

Holding the Head, walking in the Spirit, these terms are so very related. There is another useful phrase from Philippians. It is "thinking the one thing."

Before Witness Lee helped me to understand this passage, I thought being of one mind or better "thinking the one thing" had to do with everyone having the same opinion about every matter of doctrine or practice.

Actually, in Philippians, "thinking the one thing" has to do with gaining Christ, being more filled with Christ, being more constituted with Christ and saturated with Christ. In denying our own opinions we can enjoy Christ and become more filled with Him as the ingredient that builds up the local church.

We can all think "the one thing" of gaining Christ.

Throughout the epistle of Philippians Paul exhorts the saints in Philippi to "think the one thing" . Then by way of example, he demonstrates what that one thing is:

"Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue, if even I may lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus..

Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do; Forgetting the things which ar ebehind and stretching forward to the things which are before.

I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward.

Let us therefore, as many as are fullgrown, have this mind ..." (Phil. 3:12-15)

The "one thing" is to gain Christ, to encrease in the amount of Christ dispensed into one's personality. To hold fast the Head that the riches of His life may permeate our own soul.

"But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them refuse that I may gain Christ ..." (v.8)

Thinking the one thing is thinking of the gaining of Christ.
All members can set their minds on gaining Christ.
Whether we sing with piano or without, we can gain Christ.
Whether we baptize by immersion or sprinkle, we may all gain Christ, by counting all things besides Christ as dung.

Two Christians will not agree on everything hardly ever.
But Christians can think the one thing of "I do need MORE of Christ in my being."

Paul said "as many as are fullgrown, have this mind ... Nevetheless whereunto we have attained, by the same rule let us walk. " (v.16)

So the saints in a locality can be one because there is a core, and expanding core of Christians who only prioritize the gaining of Christ, the excellency of the knowledge of Christ their Lord. That is to know Him as He is available and living within us today. That is to be found in Him, in more and more situations ans circumstances - to be FOUND in Jesus Christ, expressing Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] I'm of the opinon that if you are walking with God following the Spirit,
much of this stuff will be put into proper perspective. If we get bent out
of shape over something so small, well we deserve what we get. I don't
feel the need to join a super church, I God knows His own and the steps
of a righteous man are ordered by the Lord. He can work i ...[text shortened]... re and more situations ans circumstances - to be FOUND in Jesus Christ, expressing Jesus Christ.

You make the mistake of taking everything Paul says in a literal way. You apparently have accepted so much propaganda from Witness Lee that you can't tell the difference when Paul is using figurative speech and when he is being literal.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] I'm of the opinon that if you are walking with God following the Spirit,
much of this stuff will be put into proper perspective. If we get bent out
of shape over something so small, well we deserve what we get. I don't
feel the need to join a super church, I God knows His own and the steps
of a righteous man are ordered by the Lord. He can work i ...[text shortened]... re and more situations ans circumstances - to be FOUND in Jesus Christ, expressing Jesus Christ.

I agree in our flesh we see all kinds of distractions, our flesh gets puffed
up and we are full of ourselves, we are critical over somethings we
should not be and ignore somethings we should be critical over, no good
thing I see when I am running around pleasing my flesh. Following after
the Spirit of God and resting in His peace is by far the better thing. I do
not care one wit about Watchman Lee, I assume he served the Lord and
I will trust God to worry about how. I am sure if I studied his doctrine
I will find somethings I like, others not so much. It has been like that with
most of the places we have called our church homes, if they point to
Jesus Christ properly, the rest will work itself out over time as we strive
to follow God through His Word and Holy Spirit.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I agree in our flesh we see all kinds of distractions, our flesh gets puffed
up and we are full of ourselves, we are critical over somethings we
should not be and ignore somethings we should be critical over, no good
thing I see when I am running around pleasing my flesh. Following after
the Spirit of God and resting in His peace is by far the better th ...[text shortened]... l work itself out over time as we strive
to follow God through His Word and Holy Spirit.
Kelly

There is a Watchman Nee and a Witness Lee. It is the teachings of Witness Lee that many have trouble with.

Originally posted by RJHinds
There is a Watchman Nee and a Witness Lee. It is the teachings of Witness Lee that many have trouble with.

I have enough trouble worrying about KellyJay than I do or will with
either Witness Lee or Watchman Nee. 😉
Kelly

Originally posted by RJHinds

You make the mistake of taking everything Paul says in a literal way. You apparently have accepted so much propaganda from Witness Lee that you can't tell the difference when Paul is using figurative speech and when he is being literal.

It is vain for you attempt to shame me for taking in so much of the ministry of Witness Lee. I told you already that to be accused of having received so much ministry from Witness Lee is an honor to me.

Like Timothy to Paul, I feel quite honored to have received from such a servant of the Lord Jesus as brother Lee.

But now I will go further to explain why. Witness Lee received much from Watchman Nee. And in case you did not know it, one of the gifts that Watchman Nee had was to read extremely fast.

Some of his co-workers use to watch him flip through pages of a book. They could not believe that he could actually read that quickly. So they questioned him on the contents and he demonstrated that he was able speed read and digest that fast.

Thank God, he used this gift to read hundreds of classic Christian books. And one of the services that he rendered to the church was to be able to separate the very good books from the inferior ones.

So when I receive Witness Lee and Watchman Nee I am not only receiving Nee and Lee. I am also getting the "cream" of Christian ministry down through the centuries too. For so much of the most healthy, most profitable expositions of the Bible he had read and passed on.

So in receiving Witness Lee I am also receiving the top portion of the most helpful ministry of many others who went before.

At any rate it is a waste of your time to attempt to make us feel ashamed for having closely followed Witness Lee's voluminous output of healthy teaching. It really causes me to chuckle that you would attempt to slander this rich output as bad propaganda.

When I receive Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, I am also getting the best of many many brothers, from the top of what God had delivered to them as well.

Go learn what this means - "So then let no one boast in men, for all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all are yours, But you are Christ's, and Christ is Gods." ( 1 Cor. 3:22,23)

Originally posted by sonship

You make the mistake of taking everything Paul says in a literal way. You apparently have accepted so much propaganda from Witness Lee that you can't tell the difference when Paul is using figurative speech and when he is being literal.

It is vain for you attempt to shame me for taking in so much of the ministry of Witness Lee. I told y ...[text shortened]... things to come; all are yours, But you are Christ's, and Christ is Gods." ( 1 Cor. 3:22,23) [/b]

I was only speaking against the teachings of Witness Lee, so you don't have to defend Watchman Nee.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I was only speaking against the teachings of Witness Lee, so you don't have to defend Watchman Nee.

I would suggest that you READ some of Watchman Nee. I have no confidence that you know hardly anything about what Watchman Nee ministered.

Fine. You have a great adventure ahead of you, especially on the matters of the church.

Here you may read at least the first two chapters of Watchnee Nee's book - "The Glorious Church" . It is a life changing book. And for the hungry who can see the vision of it, they will thank God that Witness Lee was charged by brother Nee to continue to speak and teach such things.

We're not fooled. God continued to reveal such truth through Lee as he began through Nee.

Here is the Table of Contents to The Glorious Church
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=2190C8

Why did God create man? What was His purpose in creating man?

God has given us the answer to these questions in Genesis 1:26 and 27. These two verses are of great significance. They reveal to us that God's creation of man was indeed an exceedingly special one. Before God created man, He said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." This was God's plan in creating man. "God said, Let us..." This speaks of the kind of man God wanted. In other words, God was designing a "model" for the man He was to create. Verse 27 reveals God's creation of man: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Verse 28 says, "God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

From these verses we see the man that God desired. God desired a ruling man, a man who would rule upon this earth; then He would be satisfied.

How did God create man? He created man in His own image. God wanted a man like Himself. It is very evident then that man's position in God's creation is entirely unique, for among all of God's creatures man alone was created in God's image. The man that God's heart was set upon was completely different from all other created beings; he was a man in His own image. - Watchman Nee

Originally posted by RJHinds

I was only speaking against the teachings of Witness Lee, so you don't have to defend Watchman Nee.

What is the extent of a local church? How big of an area constitutes the sphere of a local church? We would draw the brothers’ and sisters’ attention to the fact that in the Bible, the church is never divided into regions. The Bible never groups a few churches together under a regional organization. Although there were seven churches in Asia, we do not see the Bible appointing Ephesus or Philadelphia to rule over the other six churches. We only see seven churches, with seven lampstands. These seven lampstands represent the seven churches (Rev. 1:12, 20). In the Old Testament, one lampstand was divided into seven branches. In the New Testament, there are seven lampstands, not one lampstand with seven branches. This means that the seven different churches are shining by themselves and each one is responsible to Christ by itself. Every church is governed by Christ alone and is not under the control of any other church. In administration, every lampstand is independent and not under the control of any other lampstand. Every one of them is responsible to the Son of Man alone, who walks in the midst of the seven lampstands. They are responsible only to their High Priest. No church is responsible to another church. Although they are seven churches, they have not joined themselves to become one united church, and they are not responsible to some higher synod or convention. Each one of them is a so-called congregation, an assembly whose boundary is the locality. The Bible takes the city or the smallest administrative unit as the boundary of a local church. A local church is the basic unit of the church in the Bible. No local church is joined to another church or regards another bigger church as the central church. In other words, in God’s eyes, Rome has never been appointed to be the central church. God has never acknowledged one place as the center of all churches, with that place ruling over and controlling all the other assemblies. According to God’s organization, there is no center on earth. Jerusalem was not the central church at that time.

From Chapter Four of The Assembly Life by Watchman Nee

I was only speaking against the teachings of Witness Lee, so you don't have to defend Watchman Nee.

From The Glorious Church by Watchman Nee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

The passage in Revelation 18:2-8 tells us the reason for Babylon's fall and judgment. The sinful deeds of Babylon are announced and the consequences of her judgment are set forth. All who are of the same mind with God must say, Hallelujah, for God has judged Babylon. Though the actual judgment is in the future, the spiritual judgment must take place today. The actual judgment will be performed by God in the future, but the spiritual judgment must be made by us today. If God's children bring many unspiritual things into the church, how do we feel about it? Does the fact that we are all God's children and the fact that we should love one another mean that we should not say, Hallelujah, to God's judgment? We must realize that this is not a matter of love, but a matter of God's glory. The principle of Babylon is confusion and uncleanness; therefore, her name is the harlot. The few passages in Revelation which God uses to describe Babylon show us His exceeding hatred toward her. "Those who destroy the earth" in Revelation 11:18 are of this woman, of whom it is written in chapter nineteen that she "corrupted the earth" (v. 2).

God hates the principle of Babylon more than anything else. We must note in His presence how much of our being is still not absolute for Him. Anything which is halfway and not absolute is called Babylon. We need God to enlighten us so that in His light we may judge everything in us which is not absolute toward Him. Only when we judge ourselves in this way can we confess that we too hate the principle of Babylon. By His grace, may the Lord not allow us to seek any glory and honor outside of Christ. The Lord requires that we delight and seek to be one who is absolute, not one who is living in the principle of Babylon.