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07 Aug 16
5 edits
Now I do believe that the plural word "bundles" may mean that there are different categories of false believers. Maybe there be a bundle of unsaved trinitarians who never received Jesus here, a bundle of Unitarians who trusted that it was not necessary to receive Jesus there, maybe another bundle of theologians and Bible teachers who never were regenerated and never believed in their heart that God raised the Lord Jesus from the dead.
While we Christians should not encourage obscurity. We should encourage that believers be clear. The fact of the matter is that only God knows who in the world has received Christ.
We do not need to wait for this angelic discriminating task to correct the wrong teaching that people may have. And on the trinity thread, I did do that. I gave attention to the TALK of anti three-oneness as I think I should.
The angels will give you a definite Yes or No about whether behind the talk either You or I am a true disciple of Jesus with the Spirit of Christ.
"Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not of him." (Rom. 8:9b)
Lastly, though there is a strong element of moral behavior indicated in the parable of the wheat and the tares, the real essence is the nature of the plants. Because it is sometimes impossible for the Lord's servants to tell the difference (v.29) Wheat sometimes appears to be Tares and Tares sometimes appear to be Wheat.
Though this confusion is not what God intended, it was nonetheless the result because an ENEMY of Christ is as active in the world as the Holy Spirit.
" ... An enemy has done this." (v.28a)
Do you think that what you post in here is beyond reproach, Beyond scrutiny?
No. I think it should be scrutinized or examined as the noble Bereans examined what they heard. I am examining what the Unitarians say.
I am beyond having to give a SIMPLE YES or NO to a more nuanced and non-simple question.
But I have said before that I believe the Bible is infallible but I don't think my interpretations of it are infallible.
It is a QUOTATION and not much of an interpretation that the Son is God. Likewise it is QUOTATION that the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. I think then that Father- Son - Holy Spirit are God.
Do you think you are infallible sonship?
See above.
Is demonising divegeester, another Christian, the only way you can defend your preaching from .... Questions?
But you see YOU ... really don't know if I am a Christian or not.
Am I a Christian - Yes or No ???
See? You'd be wise to say what you THINK. But only God knows for sure. Right?
I did nothing less than this.
My references to diseased with questionings was intended for FMF and others, including you. So there was some "group therapy" happening there. Some points applied more to other posters and some point more to you.
If the shoe fits wear it.
I shall add your horrible name-calling to the list of disgraceful things I've been called by so-called Christians in this forum, simply because I disagree with them.
You exaggerate I think. I have spent some time on this very post about an acute questioning on your part.
Anytime you want to actually answer my question in the other thread - please PM so I don't miss it - as it gets buried in another one of your monologues.
You had your answer for many hours now, probably over 24. You just don't like the answer. My defense over on the trinity thread, was not about anyone's state of salvation. It was about the TALK of those (believers or not) about God not being Father-Son- Holy Spirit (aka the Trinity)
I retract or apologize for exactly NOTHING.
But this thread was intended to be about calling on the Lord.
07 Aug 16
Originally posted by sonshipYour "diseased with questionings" reference was intended for me but not addressed to me? Oh, well. My references to your evasiveness and your use of ad hominems were intended for you and that's why I addressed them to you.
My references to diseased with questionings was intended for FMF and others, including you.
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07 Aug 16
Originally posted by FMFWhen you were a Christian did you ever experience answer to prayer? Did you ever experience disappointment over unanswered prayer ?
Your "diseased with questionings" reference was intended for me but not addressed to me? Oh, well. My references to your evasiveness and your use of ad hominems were intended for you and that's why I addressed them to you.
07 Aug 16
Originally posted by sonshipI am a non-Christian and what I happened to believe in the past is irrelevant, regardless of how sincere and convinced I may have been about those beliefs at that those times in the past. So there you have it.
When you were a Christian did you ever experience answer to prayer? Did you ever experience disappointment over unanswered prayer ?
So. Back to the question you have been evading.
What if sonhouse opens his whole being [as you put it] and calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus, with the pure intention [as you see it] of allowing the Lord Jesus to come into his life [in the sense that you intend] ~ and, regardless, nothing happens?
Would that be evidence pointing towards you simply imagining that "the Lord answers" you when you claim to do those things mentioned above?
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07 Aug 16
Originally posted by FMFi am going to paste this comment on a new thread about breaking the Christian spell.
I am a non-Christian and what I happened to believe in the past is irrelevant, regardless of how sincere and convinced I may have been about those beliefs at that those times in the past. So there you have it.
So. Back to the question you have been evading.
What if sonhouse opens his whole being [as you put it] and calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus, wi ...[text shortened]... simply imagining that "the Lord answers" you when you claim to do those things mentioned above?
If you have more to say along those lines, that would be a good place to say it.
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07 Aug 16
Originally posted by sonshipFull hairdryer again!You are doing this because you simply don't like being questioned about your strange beliefs,
This thread I opened about Calling on the name of the Lord Jesus.
Some may find it strange but there are hundreds of references to calling "O Lord" in the Bible.
This was a very practical discussion. We can enjoy touching the Spirit of Chri ...[text shortened]... re. In that place there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth." (vs.40-41) [/quote][/b]
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07 Aug 16
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipI'm not asking what the diciples believed or what Jesus said to them, I'm asking you sonship, about your personal beliefs and the consequences of rejecting your version of the trinity doctrine. And yes I know you did "no yes or no" but that is the interesting piece - WHY you won't. The problem/dilemma you are caught in sonship is that if you say "yes" a person is precluded from being spirit filled if they reject the trinity, then you are in error because you cannot substantiate it. If you say no, then how can the doctrine be as critical and important as you are conteantly making out.
And I already told you that as you phased your interrogation you're not going to get a simple Yes or No
That is why you won't give a yes or a no.
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07 Aug 16
4 edits
Originally posted by divegeesterI don't know what your "Hairdryer" thing is suppose to mean other than it appears as some kind of insult to my writing style.
then you are in error because you cannot substantiate it. If you say no, then how can the doctrine be as critical and important as you are conteantly making out.
That is why you won't give a yes or a no.[/b]
So you're still at it huh? Let's take a look.
I'm not asking what the disciples believed or what Jesus said to them ...
Its relevant and important.
Next?
I'm asking you sonship, about your personal beliefs and the consequences of rejecting your version of the trinity doctrine.
I gave my "personal" beliefs based upon what my Lord has taught. I used [b]Matthew 13:24-3- with His interpretation 36-43.
That would include discussions on the debates about Trinity, methods of baptism, pre-trib verses post-trib, and many other theological themes.
I never met anyone "full of the Spirit of Christ" who said he didn't believe Jesus was Lord or rose from the dead.
,And yes I know you did "no yes or no" but that is the interesting piece - WHY you won't. The problem/dilemma you are caught in sonship is that if you say "yes" a person is precluded from being spirit filled if they reject the trinity,
I am not "caught" on anything.
I was a believer in Christ at a very young age. Then I went through a time of backsliding. I became virtually oblivious to all things Christian. I am not kidding.
During that time I knew not Trinity nor Incarnation nor anything else.
I ran after experiences of the flesh, of sin, of "freedom" from authority.
I began to search into Zen. I read books by Allen Watts and Norman O'Brown on Zen.
I sadly thought the whole Christian thing was completely over for me.
But somehow I could not remember my personal relationship with God as before.
I had something like Amnesia.
I had "blacked out" and just could not remember anything about knowing God as a child.
I argued with people about the very definition of "God".
What do you MEAN by "God" ?
I debated with some.
I could not remember my past experience at all.
I got to the point where I just imagined that the answer to the riddle of the universe was just some huge Question Mark out there somewhere.
I nearly lost my mind when drugs were involved.
I had to stop myself from thinking because I noticed that my philosophizing was taking my brain in huge circles. What ever conclusion I came to about the meaning of life, if I thought about it long enough I arrived at the opposite conclusion.
This circular philosophizing scared me so I made myself stop thinking about it.
One day I was in the library of the music school I was attending. I was listening with headphones to Richard Strauss's Tone Poem "Death and Transfiguration". I was planning on dropping out of school and going to Japan to study Zen. I sat there weeping because I thought that I had found the answer to life's riddle. The music of Strauss made the moment all the more dramatic.
It was in the works. I was supposedly going to go with some band to Japan. But thank God, it never materialized.
Why am I telling you all this about my experience ?"
I firmly believe and will until the day I depart or see the Lord - ALL that time I was still born again.
Let me repeat that because you may have forgotten already. ALL THAT TIME I was in total and abject darkness, talking like a stone heathen, I believe that Jesus had never left me. When I came back to Jesus it was the SHOCK of realizing that this OLD Friend had never left me. I had backslidden from Him.
Forget about me discussing the trinity in those days. I was telling people either 'What do you mean by God anyway?" OR I was saying "I'm God. I'm God".
to my surprise, to make a long story short (if it is not too late) when Jesus came back to my realization it was like coming home of a prodigal son. That night I cried -
'Jesus, take me home. I'm tired." I finally realized that I had wondered far far away with a dirty conscience, unconfessed sins, chasing the world.
SO, for this reason AND For the biblical reasons I gave from my study of the Bible, I am exceedingly reluctant to pronounce that I know if someone is regenerated or not. And my belief is that while we should not try to be obscure about our faith, the fact of the matter is that many people who possibly received the Spirit of Christ, you would hardly know it.
You are not talking to Rajk999 here. I believe once a man is born again he CANNOT be unborn. Jesus may be buried deep down there somewhere. And I have seen some people who spoke some very off and strange things of whom I heard them say at least SOMETHING which may indicate that they met the Lord Jesus at sometime.
So divegeester, TRY as you may to hold my feet to the fire, I WILL NOT insist that I can tell by someone's talk - ABSOLUTELY - that they never received the Spirit of Christ.
All that I have written here which you have just waded through is pretty much exactly what Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 says. You will not get a simple Yes or No on this. Sorry.
Now notice the Apostle Paul here. He says definitely -
"Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed; and no one can say, Jesus is Lord! except in the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor. 12:3)
Notice that he stops short of saying No one who is SAVED says Jesus is accursed.
He says anyone saying "Jesus is accursed" is definitely NOT speaking from the Holy Spirit.
And no one can confess "Jesus is Lord" Paul says, "except in the Holy Spirit". I would interpret that to mean that the one confessing has the Holy Spirit.
Now we may want Paul to give us a Yes or No about the cursing man's salvation.
And some may interpret to not speak in the Holy Spirit to mean not be saved. That's a matter of interpretation. One thing seems clear -
" .. no on speaking in the Spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed .."
He is dealing with the man's SPEECH.
He comes short of clearly dealing with the state of the man's salvation.
Whoever he is, he cannot speak such a way about Jesus and be doing so by the Holy Spirit.
My discussion on the Trinity was about speech that was wrong.
You have attempted to turn it into a referendum on whether I think people who don't talk like me on the Triune God are saved or not.
If you refer to this writing again as "Hairdryer" it will be the last exchange you will have with me on this Forum. Don't try me on this.
Originally posted by sonship to divegeesterGood grief. On this forum in the last day or two you've accused me of being diseased, corrupted in mind, a fraud, blinded with pride, insincere, deceptive, ignorant, a hypocrtite, a liar, a 'pick pocket', a cheat, of saying false things, of fraudulent and sensational attempts to cheat other people, and whatever else. and yet I keep having exchanges with you on this Forum. And yet if someone simply likens you to a hairdryer... 😛
If you refer to this writing again as "Hairdryer" it will be the last exchange you will have with me on this Forum. Don't try me on this.
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08 Aug 16
Originally posted by sonshipThis is you in "full hairdryer" sonship. Full obfuscation. Full deflection.
I don't know what your "Hairdryer" thing is suppose to mean other than it appears as some kind of insult to my writing style.
So you're still at it huh? Let's take a look.
[b]I'm not asking what the disciples believed or what Jesus said to them ...
Its relevant and important.
Next?
[quote] I'm asking you sonship, about your ...[text shortened]... rdryer" it will be the last exchange you will have with me on this Forum. Don't try me on this.
I'm not asking you anything at all about what you have postponed in this post, interesting although it is. It is nothing to do with what I'm asking you.
I am asking you a very simple doctrinal question, let me phrase it another way: I reject the trinity teaching as outright error; am I now precluded from being filled with the spirit and therefore salvation? Yes or no?
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08 Aug 16
4 edits
Originally posted by divegeester
: I reject the trinity teaching as outright error.
And it seems that you are NOT able to point out why it is an error. So instead you make the matter a referendum on the assurance of personal salvation.
If there is error then point out the error in believing the one God is Father - Son - Holy Spirit. If you cannot present a good case, why deflect to making it an issue about the assurance of salvation ?
You are using the issue of personal assurance of salvation to substitute for your weakness in actually showing the Triune God is not a revelation in the Bible.
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08 Aug 16
2 edits
Originally posted by sonshipAs I've said over and over and over again, the topic in question is YOUR strange beliefs and the implications to another person of rejecting those beliefs.: I reject the trinity teaching as outright error.
And it seems that you are NOT able to point out why it is an error. So instead you make the matter a referendum on the assurance of personal salvation.
If there is error then point out the error in believing the one God is [b] Father - Son - Holy Spirit. If you cannot present a g ...[text shortened]... e for your weakness in actually showing the Triune God is not a revelation in the Bible.[/b]
It is my assertion that you believe that rejection of the trinity doctrine precludes someone from begin filling with the spirit of Christ and therefore, (according to your definition) also from salvation.
You refusing to deny it just makes the case that this is your belief, stronger, and also highlights your acknowledgement of it's "strangeness" as a belief.
If my assertion about what you believe is incorrect, then just come out and say so.