1. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    12 Mar '05 23:22
    As I have cited before, the Catholic Catechism published by the Vatican states that non-converts are cursed people who shall be cast into a furnace.

    Do you accept or reject this tenet of the faith?
  2. Felicific Forest
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    13 Mar '05 00:59
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    As I have cited before, the Catholic Catechism published by the Vatican states that non-converts are cursed people who shall be cast into a furnace.

    Do you accept or reject this tenet of the faith?

    I have answered this question, but apparently not to your satisfaction.
    You have to be satisfied with the answer I gave you, Doctor.

  3. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    13 Mar '05 01:022 edits
    Originally posted by ivanhoe

    I have answered this question, but apparently not to your satisfaction.
    You have to be satisfied with the answer I gave you, Doctor.

    I don't recall which answer you gave. Was it I Accept It or I Reject It? I would be most grateful if you could find it in your heart to remind me.
  4. Felicific Forest
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    13 Mar '05 01:301 edit
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    I don't recall which answer you gave. Was it I Accept It or I Reject It? I would be most grateful if you could find it in your heart to remind me.
    I have a bad memory Doctor, but you beat me on all fronts ......
  5. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    13 Mar '05 14:57
    Since ivanhoe is being stubborn and uncooperative in this discussion, yea, trolling this thread, clogging it with junk, could anybody else please lend a hand and remind me whether ivanhoe answered I Accept It or I Reject It to my inquiry.

    Thank you,
    Dr. S
  6. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    15 Mar '05 14:25
    I demand an answer and I will not let this rest until I get one.
  7. London
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    15 Mar '05 14:28
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    As I have cited before, the Catholic Catechism published by the Vatican states that non-converts are cursed people who shall be cast into a furnace.

    Do you accept or reject this tenet of the faith?
    CCC Reference?

    Just asking because I don't know the context.
  8. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    15 Mar '05 16:53
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    CCC Reference?

    Just asking because I don't know the context.
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2O.HTM


    1034: Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire," and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"

    1035: The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity.
  9. London
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    15 Mar '05 17:00
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2O.HTM


    1034: Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives [b]refuse to believe and be converted
    , where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, ...[text shortened]... re!"

    1035: The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity.[/b]
    Might as well provide the whole section

    IV. Hell

    1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

    1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614

    1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

    1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616

    Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."617

    1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":619
  10. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    15 Mar '05 17:09
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Might as well provide the whole section

    IV. Hell

    1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal ...[text shortened]... res the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":619
    The excerpts I quoted are factual assertions that are well-defined and stand alone without the entire context of the section. It is only those excerpts that I wish Ivanhoe to address. The rest of the section you quoted consists primarily of vague platitudes.
  11. London
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    16 Mar '05 00:041 edit
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    The excerpts I quoted are factual assertions that are well-defined and stand alone without the entire context of the section. It is only those excerpts that I wish Ivanhoe to address. The rest of the section you quoted consists primarily of vague platitudes.
    Actually, your excerpts do not stand alone, which is why I copied out the entire section.

    Your question was:

    As I have cited before, the Catholic Catechism published by the Vatican states that non-converts are cursed people who shall be cast into a furnace. ... Do you accept or reject this tenet of the faith?

    First, CCC 1037 makes it clear that "a wilful turning away from God ... and persistence in it until the end" is necessary to go to hell. Hence, it is not merely non-converts, but persistent and obstinate non-converts who refuse to be converted that go to hell (also -> 1034).

    Second, CCC 1035 makes it clear that the chief punishment is not physical pain, but a spiritual one - eternal separation from God. The "eternal fire" (i.e. your "furnace"😉 is more a spiritual fire than a physical one.

    Edit: Given the elaborations above, my answer to your question would be, yes.
  12. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    16 Mar '05 00:083 edits
    Originally posted by lucifershammer

    First, CCC 1037 makes it clear that "a wilful turning away from God ... and persistence in it until the end" is necessary to go to hell. Hence, it is not merely non-converts, but persistent and obstinate non-converts who refuse to be converted that go to hell (also -> 1034).
    Am I to understand that your interpretation of the Catechism is that as long as somebody is lackadaisical in their failure to convert, he will not go to hell?

    Does the exceprt mean to say that having an indifference to salvation is sufficient to get to heaven?

    If not, then let us do away with your emphasis on obstinance, for it is irrelevant to my concern, which is the bare-bones, minimal requirements for being cast into the furnace.

    I will grant that persistence to the bitter end is of the essence.
  13. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    16 Mar '05 00:104 edits
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Actually, your excerpts do [b]not stand alone
    [/b]
    Don't be silly. Of course they do, because I can ask:

    Is it true that Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire," and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!" ?

    and

    Is it true that the teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity?

    And these two questions can be answered by refering to the Catechism, which affirms both of them.

    My question to ivanhoe is simply, Do you accept these affirmations of the Catechism?
  14. Standard memberDoctorScribbles
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    16 Mar '05 00:17
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    (i.e. your "furnace" )
    It's not my term. The Catechism says that Jesus used that term.

    Why put it in quotes, as if I made it up or used it in a funny way, when it's the real thing?

  15. London
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    16 Mar '05 00:48
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Am I to understand that your interpretation of the Catechism is that as long as somebody is lackadaisical in their failure to convert, he will not go to hell?

    Does the exceprt mean to say that having an indifference to salvation is sufficient to get to heaven?

    If not, then let us do away with your emphasis on obstinance, for it is irrelevant to ...[text shortened]... ing cast into the furnace.

    I will grant that persistence to the bitter end is of the essence.
    I can be indifferent to traffic laws in Birmingham AL because they do not affect me. If I intend to drive where I live, I cannot afford to be indifferent to traffic laws in the UK. Of course, I might be forced to drive before I have had a chance to find out what those laws are (e.g. an emergency might come up within a short time of my arrival), but a continued indifference to these laws even when I've had the opportunity is wilful negligence - ignorance is not a reasonable defence if I subsequently break a law.

    Similarly, a person can express reasonable doubt when faced with the Gospel, but as long as the person takes an active interest in resolving these doubts and keeps himself open to the possibility of conversion, he cannot be said to be lackadaisical or indifferent to salvation. That can only happen if the person wilfully decides to close the case.
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