Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
As I have cited before, the Catholic Catechism published by the Vatican states that non-converts are cursed people who shall be cast into a furnace.
Do you accept or reject this tenet of the faith?
I have answered this question, but apparently not to your satisfaction.
You have to be satisfied with the answer I gave you, Doctor.
2 edits
Originally posted by ivanhoeI don't recall which answer you gave. Was it I Accept It or I Reject It? I would be most grateful if you could find it in your heart to remind me.
I have answered this question, but apparently not to your satisfaction.
You have to be satisfied with the answer I gave you, Doctor.
Originally posted by lucifershammerhttp://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2O.HTM
CCC Reference?
Just asking because I don't know the context.
1034: Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire," and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"
1035: The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity.
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesMight as well provide the whole section
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2O.HTM
1034: Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives [b]refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, ...[text shortened]... re!"
1035: The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity.[/b]
IV. Hell
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."
1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."617
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":619
Originally posted by lucifershammerThe excerpts I quoted are factual assertions that are well-defined and stand alone without the entire context of the section. It is only those excerpts that I wish Ivanhoe to address. The rest of the section you quoted consists primarily of vague platitudes.
Might as well provide the whole section
IV. Hell
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal ...[text shortened]... res the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":619
1 edit
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesActually, your excerpts do not stand alone, which is why I copied out the entire section.
The excerpts I quoted are factual assertions that are well-defined and stand alone without the entire context of the section. It is only those excerpts that I wish Ivanhoe to address. The rest of the section you quoted consists primarily of vague platitudes.
Your question was:
As I have cited before, the Catholic Catechism published by the Vatican states that non-converts are cursed people who shall be cast into a furnace. ... Do you accept or reject this tenet of the faith?
First, CCC 1037 makes it clear that "a wilful turning away from God ... and persistence in it until the end" is necessary to go to hell. Hence, it is not merely non-converts, but persistent and obstinate non-converts who refuse to be converted that go to hell (also -> 1034).
Second, CCC 1035 makes it clear that the chief punishment is not physical pain, but a spiritual one - eternal separation from God. The "eternal fire" (i.e. your "furnace"😉 is more a spiritual fire than a physical one.
Edit: Given the elaborations above, my answer to your question would be, yes.
3 edits
Originally posted by lucifershammerAm I to understand that your interpretation of the Catechism is that as long as somebody is lackadaisical in their failure to convert, he will not go to hell?
First, CCC 1037 makes it clear that "a wilful turning away from God ... and persistence in it until the end" is necessary to go to hell. Hence, it is not merely non-converts, but persistent and obstinate non-converts who refuse to be converted that go to hell (also -> 1034).
Does the exceprt mean to say that having an indifference to salvation is sufficient to get to heaven?
If not, then let us do away with your emphasis on obstinance, for it is irrelevant to my concern, which is the bare-bones, minimal requirements for being cast into the furnace.
I will grant that persistence to the bitter end is of the essence.
4 edits
Originally posted by lucifershammerDon't be silly. Of course they do, because I can ask:
Actually, your excerpts do [b]not stand alone
[/b]
Is it true that Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire," and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!" ?
and
Is it true that the teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity?
And these two questions can be answered by refering to the Catechism, which affirms both of them.
My question to ivanhoe is simply, Do you accept these affirmations of the Catechism?
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesI can be indifferent to traffic laws in Birmingham AL because they do not affect me. If I intend to drive where I live, I cannot afford to be indifferent to traffic laws in the UK. Of course, I might be forced to drive before I have had a chance to find out what those laws are (e.g. an emergency might come up within a short time of my arrival), but a continued indifference to these laws even when I've had the opportunity is wilful negligence - ignorance is not a reasonable defence if I subsequently break a law.
Am I to understand that your interpretation of the Catechism is that as long as somebody is lackadaisical in their failure to convert, he will not go to hell?
Does the exceprt mean to say that having an indifference to salvation is sufficient to get to heaven?
If not, then let us do away with your emphasis on obstinance, for it is irrelevant to ...[text shortened]... ing cast into the furnace.
I will grant that persistence to the bitter end is of the essence.
Similarly, a person can express reasonable doubt when faced with the Gospel, but as long as the person takes an active interest in resolving these doubts and keeps himself open to the possibility of conversion, he cannot be said to be lackadaisical or indifferent to salvation. That can only happen if the person wilfully decides to close the case.