Calling out ivanhoe

Originally posted by ivanhoe
DoctorScribbles: "To find out whether you believe that one must deduce from the teachings of the Catholic Church that Jews go to hell, .... "

The Roman Catholic Church does NOT teach that "Jews go to hell". I agree with that stance. ...[text shortened]... n a different form before and that's all there is to it. Nufsaid.

I understand that the declaration "Jews go to hell" is not to be found in any document of the Church.

My inquiry is in regards to deducing that finding from other principles of the doctrine, such as those regarding requirements of salvation. Ivanhoe, do you believe that there exist requirements for salvation? If so, could you please state them in your own words as a reflection of your understanding of doctrine, rather than refering me elsewhere.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
The Roman Catholic Church does NOT teach that "Jews go to hell". I agree with that stance. I said this in a different form before and that's all there is to it. Nufsaid.

I think it is somewhat more complicated than that, Ivanhoe. I mean, the Church (at the very
least) strongly urges a belief in the complete teachings of the Church -- a principal part of
which is a faith in Jesus as the Son of God and Savior of the World -- in order to be saved.

As 99% of Jews do not do this, this puts them in the 'at risk' category. I do not know how the
Church can maintain such diametrically opposed stances in sincerity.

The RCC used to teach that the Jews definitively went to hell before Vatican II. I don't know how
old you are, but you might remember the 'Prayer for the Perfidious Jews' which was peformed
during the Good Friday Mass of the Pre-Sanctified.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
I have never heard of 'Baptism of desire.' Is there a section of the Catechism that discusses this?

Nemesio

Sure. CCC 1258, 1260 and 1281.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Sure. CCC 1258, 1260 and 1281.

Thanks! I will review it and perhaps discuss it some here.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
I am afraid that it is not my view. It is not clear to me through Church documents
that salvation is assured by adhering to the teachings of the Church. The
reason I say this is because such a position is theologically unsound. There are many
examples in Scripture where the Pharisees are adhering to their teachings, but only
doing so for the sake of adhering, not because of sincere belief.

Refer my earlier post on the two senses of "guidelines". Remember that the teachings of the RCC also include faith, repentance and love - none of which can be 'faked'.

For Church documents that I believe assures salvation to those who are in full communion (in thoughts and deeds!) with the Church, refer Lumen Gentium nn 6-8.

Indeed, adhering to Church teachings suggests salvation by works, which is a theologially
untenable position. It is not a matter of what you do or how many times you do it. What
matters is the state of a person's heart, whether s/he believes sincerely. This is the impact
of 'informed conscience.'

Of course I'm not arguing for salvation/justification by works. I am saying that justification is indeed by grace, but justification also requires active participation from humans when they are capable of it. That's all I'm saying (refer the BMW dealer analogy in the Algorithm thread).

Also, btw, could you give some references to the "informed conscience" concept you've mentioned? I can't seem to find any mention of it in my references.

As such, it seems to me that Church's position is: If you adhere to the teachings of the Church
out of a position of sincere belief, you maximize the likelihood of acceptance into the Kingdom
of God.

I disagree. Though not authoritative, one can also check out http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

As the Church holds that no one can be 100% certain about whether their soul is, in
fact, in a state of Grace, one cannot be certain of salvation.

I'm not sure, but CCC 2005 seems to indicate otherwise.

?

I think the first part of your post was about the LG references.

(LG 7) By communicating His Spirit, Christ made His brothers, called together from all nations, mystically the components of His own Body.... In that Body the life of Christ is poured into the believers who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to Christ who suffered and was glorified.

(n. 7) All the members ought to be molded in the likeness of Him, until Christ be formed in them.(62) For this reason we, who have been made to conform with Him, who have died with Him and risen with Him, are taken up into the mysteries of His life, until we will reign together with Him.(63) On earth, still as pilgrims in a strange land, tracing in trial and in oppression the paths He trod, we are made one with His sufferings like the body is one with the Head, suffering with Him, that with Him we may be glorified.(64)

(n. 8) This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12*) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as "the pillar and mainstay of the truth". This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.

(LG 9) For those who believe in Christ, who are reborn not from a perishable but from an imperishable seed through the word of the living God,(88) not from the flesh but from water and the Holy Spirit,(89) are finally established as "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people . . . who in times past were not a people, but are now the people of God".(90) ... That messianic people has Christ for its head, "Who was delivered up for our sins, and rose again for our justification",(91) and now, having won a name which is above all names, reigns in glory in heaven. The state of this people is that of the dignity and freedom of the sons of God, in whose hearts the Holy Spirit dwells as in His temple. Its law is the new commandment to love as Christ loved us.(92) Its end is the kingdom of God, which has been begun by God Himself on earth, and which is to be further extended until it is brought to perfection by Him at the end of time, when Christ, our life,(93) shall appear, and "creation itself will be delivered from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the sons of God".(94) So it is that that messianic people, although it does not actually include all men, and at times may look like a small flock, is nonetheless a lasting and sure seed of unity, hope and salvation for the whole human race. Established by Christ as a communion of life, charity and truth, it is also used by Him as an instrument for the redemption of all, and is sent forth into the whole world as the light of the world and the salt of the earth.(95)

EDIT: Isn't it irritating how easy it is to get confused between the "Post" and "Previous Post" text boxes, especially when you're trying to comment inline?

Originally posted by Nemesio
I think it is somewhat more complicated than that, Ivanhoe. I mean, the Church (at the very
least) strongly urges a belief in the complete teachings of the Church -- a principal part of
which is a faith in Jesus as the Son of God and Savior of the World -- in order to be saved.

As 99% of Jews do not do this, this puts them in the 'at risk' cat ...[text shortened]... idious Jews' which was peformed
during the Good Friday Mass of the Pre-Sanctified.

Nemesio

It seems that the CC believes that jews do go to hell, not because they are jews but because they aren't christians.
In this way they receive no special treatment over atheists, muslims, etc.

Originally posted by Varg
It seems that the CC believes that jews do go to hell, not because they are jews but because they aren't christians.
In this way they receive no special treatment over atheists, muslims, etc.

References?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
References?

See above.

Originally posted by Varg
See above.

If you're referring me to your own post, then it is your restatement/interpretation of something (presumably) you read from official Church teaching. I am asking what it was you read and where.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
If you're referring me to your own post, then it is your restatement/interpretation of something (presumably) you read from official Church teaching. I am asking what it was you read and where.

I'm referring to you (and others) posts in this thread.
It was my interpretation of what you had all written.

Originally posted by Varg
I'm referring to you (and others) posts in this thread.
It was my interpretation of what you had all written.

Fair enough. But neither ivanhoe nor I (nor Nemesio, for that matter) have written that non-Christians are doomed for Hell (nor that all Christians/Catholics are destined for Heaven).