1. SubscriberMarinkatomb
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    15 May '05 23:101 edit
    [EDIT}- Title -Can you choose NOT to go to heaven

    God gave us Free will. When we die, can we choose not to got to heaven? Assuming you have been saved and have been allowed entry, can you choose not to enter? If so, where do you go?
  2. The sky
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    15 May '05 23:431 edit
    That reminds me of Dostoevsky's "The Brothers Karamasov", where Ivan Karamasov says something like "I don't reject god, I just humbly give back my entrance ticket". Very interesting book, by the way. Anyway, good question. I think most Christians assume that the only alternative to heaven is hell. Not much of a choice, if you ask me. I guess refusing to go to heaven and choosing hell instead would make you kind of a martyr.

    Actually I find it amazing how seldom this is brought up. Somehow most Christians seem to believe that if you believe in their god, that automatically means you will worship him. If I would believe in or even have proof for god as he is portrayed in the bible, I think I would become a rebel and, like Ivan Karamasov, give back the entrance ticket, should I be offered one.
  3. SubscriberMarinkatomb
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    16 May '05 00:16
    Originally posted by Nordlys
    That reminds me of Dostoevsky's "The Brothers Karamasov", where Ivan Karamasov says something like "I don't reject god, I just humbly give back my entrance ticket". Very interesting book, by the way. Anyway, good question. I think most Christians assume that the only alternative to heaven is hell. Not much of a choice, if you ask me. I guess refusing t ...[text shortened]... become a rebel and, like Ivan Karamasov, give back the entrance ticket, should I be offered one.
    I am an atheist, but i believe in a creator/creators

    I don't believe in Heaven for a second though. Were i to create the Universe and everything in it, i wouldn't expect worship from my creations and thus would have no need to reward or punish any action.

    Personally, given the choice, i would choose to return to earth, or in other words, to be reborn where ever. I don't believe the concept of Heaven is realistic. Were you to live in a perfect world with no badness, goodness would no longer hold any meaning.
  4. Standard membertelerion
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    16 May '05 02:03
    Originally posted by Nordlys
    That reminds me of Dostoevsky's "The Brothers Karamasov", where Ivan Karamasov says something like "I don't reject god, I just humbly give back my entrance ticket". Very interesting book, by the way. Anyway, good question. I think most Christians assume that the only alternative to heaven is hell. Not much of a choice, if you ask me. I guess refusing t ...[text shortened]... become a rebel and, like Ivan Karamasov, give back the entrance ticket, should I be offered one.
    Yes, it's amazing how many xtians claim that free will is necessary for a perfect world and that free will is contingent on sin being a legitimate possibility, but then in the heat of debate deny both that God can sin and that we can sin in heaven.

  5. London
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    16 May '05 09:511 edit
    Originally posted by marinakatomb
    [EDIT}- Title -[b]Can you choose NOT to go to heaven

    God gave us Free will. When we die, can we choose not to got to heaven? Assuming you have been saved and have been allowed entry, can you choose not to enter? If so, where do you go?[/b]
    Your questions presuppose that we have free will after our death.
  6. South Dakota, USA
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    16 May '05 14:35
    Interesting viewpoint, but you know, the demons believe in God. They rebeled out of pride and gave back their tickets a long time ago, but they believe, without worshipping.

    The only reason one would talk about refusing to go to Heaven is if one had a cartoon understanding of what it would be like. It is, whatever else it may be, the fulfillment of our deepest purposes, of what it means to be human, and intensely interesting, as our intellects will be unclouded by sin, and we will be exploring the mind of God.
  7. Standard memberRBHILL
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    16 May '05 17:26
    Originally posted by marinakatomb
    [EDIT}- Title -[b]Can you choose NOT to go to heaven

    God gave us Free will. When we die, can we choose not to got to heaven? Assuming you have been saved and have been allowed entry, can you choose not to enter? If so, where do you go?[/b]
    First off maybe that person was never truly saved.

    Second, why would you not what to go to heaven?
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    16 May '05 21:46
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    First off maybe that person was never truly saved.

    Second, why would you not what to go to heaven?
    Well after a lifetime of denial and living under a false free will, I'd be pretty miffed and as I'm only human I may be rash enough to have a go.
  9. Standard memberColetti
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    16 May '05 22:51
    Originally posted by marinakatomb
    [EDIT}- Title -[b]Can you choose NOT to go to heaven

    God gave us Free will. When we die, can we choose not to got to heaven? Assuming you have been saved and have been allowed entry, can you choose not to enter? If so, where do you go?[/b]
    No, and no.
  10. SubscriberMarinkatomb
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    17 May '05 04:50
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    First off maybe that person was never truly saved.

    Second, why would you not what to go to heaven?
    My point is this. Free will is the reason we sin. When someone kills someone, they do it out of free will. For heaven to be free of sin, it would have to be free of free will wouldn't it? Either that or your every thought would have to be monitored all the time to prevent you sinning in heaven. This may sound silly, but would that be heaven? (ie, a perfect place to be?)

    Im also interested to know whether not wanting to go to heaven automatically means you go to hell, or if there is some kind of reincarnation for the un-decided.
  11. SubscriberMarinkatomb
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    17 May '05 04:51
    Originally posted by Coletti
    No, and no.
    Care to expand on that?
  12. Standard memberRBHILL
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    17 May '05 14:42
    Originally posted by marinakatomb
    My point is this. Free will is the reason we sin. When someone kills someone, they do it out of free will. For heaven to be free of sin, it would have to be free of free will wouldn't it? Either that or your every thought would have to be monitored all the time to prevent you sinning in heaven. This may sound silly, but would that be heaven? (ie, a per ...[text shortened]... utomatically means you go to hell, or if there is some kind of reincarnation for the un-decided.
    When we are in heaven we are there because we are covered by the blood of Jesus, and therefore we will not sin. And someday we will get new bodies in heaven.
  13. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    17 May '05 15:211 edit
    Originally posted by RBHILL
    When we are in heaven we are there because we are covered by the blood of Jesus, and therefore we will not sin. And someday we will get new bodies in heaven.
    you wont make it to heaven , if you dont undersatnd the word of the kingdom, and you have show a decided lack of understanding.

    That you think you are already "saved" is enough proof of that.
  14. Standard memberRBHILL
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    17 May '05 15:341 edit
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    you wont make it to heaven , if you dont undersatnd the word of the kingdom, and you have show a decided lack of understanding.

    That you think you are already "saved" is enough proof of that.
    If it was not for Jesus dying for are sins no one would go there.

    You don't need to understand it all, you are justified by faith in Christ. So come to Jesus, he knocks at the door of your heart Revelation 3:20, will you let him in?
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