Spirituality
05 Dec 13
I could not help overhearing that some people believe that capital punishment = murder. While I am opposed to capital punishment, I think calling it 'murder' is overstating the case.
I support the concept of capital punishment. When someone has shown us by their actions that they consider themselves fit to decide who lives and who dies, that person should be permanently stopped. Terminal force is justified because the stakes are extremely high. If we try to rehabilitate such a person and fail, more innocent lives will be lost.
However, two practical reasons compel me to oppose capital punishment.
1) There is a distinct possibility that innocent people will be executed. One innocent person executed is one too many.
2) Someone has to actually kill the convict. Whomever we choose to do it becomes desensitized to the taking of human life (as do we, the sanctioners of the action). The last thing we should want is to make more people callous and accepting of killing.
Originally posted by SwissGambitBiblically, state-sponsored executions for crimes committed are not murder. Neither is killing in wartime. This is precisely why the word used in "Thou shalt not kill" is actually 'murder'. Murder is a wanton taking of life. Cain murdered Abel. Joshua and the Hebrews did not murder the Canaanites.
I could not help overhearing that some people believe that capital punishment = murder. While I am opposed to capital punishment, I think calling it 'murder' is overstating the case.
I support the concept of capital punishment. When someone has shown us by their actions that they consider themselves fit to decide who lives and who dies, that pe ...[text shortened]... action). The last thing we should want is to make more people callous and accepting of killing.
This is not to say that there cannot be murder in wartime. There have been war crimes trials where some of these cases have been tried. And doubtless, some state-sponsored executions may have been murder, where the accused was railroaded and convicted and hanged, merely for being black, for example.
Overall, though, I agree with you. Capital punishment is not a 'wanton taking of life' and therefore does not classify as murder.
Originally posted by SuzianneAlthough I agree that murder is the wrong word for killing in war time, this doesn't mean that killing in war time is any less morally wrong. It does mean it becomes a collective wrong rather than and individual wrong.
Neither is killing in wartime.
Joshua and the Hebrews did not murder the Canaanites.
I am not arguing that war is always wrong, after all there is the self defence claim just as for individuals. But I am not sure that Joshua and the Hebrews could make that defense.
Correct me if I am wrong, but did they not kill the Canaanites on Gods command? If an individual was commanded by God to kill another individual, would that be murder?
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05 Dec 13
Originally posted by Suzianneyou don't think the Hebrews are murderers? is that because they were commanded by god?
Biblically, state-sponsored executions for crimes committed are not murder. Neither is killing in wartime. This is precisely why the word used in "Thou shalt not kill" is actually 'murder'. Murder is a wanton taking of life. Cain murdered Abel. Joshua and the Hebrews did not murder the Canaanites.
This is not to say that there cannot be murder in wa ...[text shortened]... Capital punishment is not a 'wanton taking of life' and therefore does not classify as murder.
I work with several people who have killed after hearing gods voice commanding them.......are they murderers?
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05 Dec 13
-Removed-Um... Actually I rather think it is a matter for the state.
On what basis are we making laws without morality?
I mean that's not the only factor in making laws, and not all morals should be encoded
in laws...
But the state should absolutely be in the morality business or what the hell are we doing.
05 Dec 13
Originally posted by twhiteheadI was thinking along similar lines but you pretty much put it into words. I think there can still be individual wrongs in a war, like killing an unarmed prisoner. But I agree that the wrongs of war are collectively the fault of the group of people waging it.
Although I agree that murder is the wrong word for killing in war time, this doesn't mean that killing in war time is any less morally wrong. It does mean it becomes a collective wrong rather than and individual wrong.
I am not arguing that war is always wrong, after all there is the self defence claim just as for individuals. But I am not sure that J ...[text shortened]... command? If an individual was commanded by God to kill another individual, would that be murder?
06 Dec 13
Is giving a miserable serial murderer a lethal injection worse than keeping him incaserated for her life?
I think I'd rather die than sit in jail with no prospect of leaving...
Then again with the world the way it is with corruption amongst police and especially lower prison guards, the chances for a life sentencee to have a decent life, even an assisted escape, is a distinct possibility.
06 Dec 13
Originally posted by karoly aczelAhh, there it is. I knew I had missed a point somewhere.
Is giving a miserable serial murderer a lethal injection worse than keeping him incaserated for her life?
I think I'd rather die than sit in jail with no prospect of leaving...
Then again with the world the way it is with corruption amongst police and especially lower prison guards, the chances for a life sentencee to have a decent life, even an assisted escape, is a distinct possibility.
3) The rich tend to get 'better' justice than the poor.
06 Dec 13
Originally posted by twhiteheadThe Canaanites were sinful, in their worship of evil entities. They would have polluted the Hebrew bloodlines and corrupted the godliness of the chosen people. In fact, that is what happened because of intermarriage, all because they did NOT wipe out the Canaanites, and centuries later they reaped what they had sown with the Babylonian Exile. It would have been better for many generations of Hebrews if they had obeyed God.
Although I agree that murder is the wrong word for killing in war time, this doesn't mean that killing in war time is any less morally wrong. It does mean it becomes a collective wrong rather than and individual wrong.
I am not arguing that war is always wrong, after all there is the self defence claim just as for individuals. But I am not sure that J ...[text shortened]... command? If an individual was commanded by God to kill another individual, would that be murder?
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06 Dec 13
-Removed-And?
Atheists have no one single view on morality, because the only criteria for being
an atheist is not having a belief in gods.
You can't talk about the 'atheist' position on morality because there isn't one.
Other than we would obviously all agree that gods are not involved.
Not believing in them and all.
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06 Dec 13
Originally posted by SuzianneSooo... You are also a racist... As well as a condoner of genocide...
The Canaanites were sinful, in their worship of evil entities. They would have polluted the Hebrew bloodlines and corrupted the godliness of the chosen people. In fact, that is what happened because of intermarriage, all because they did NOT wipe out the Canaanites, and centuries later they reaped what they had sown with the Babylonian Exile. It would have been better for many generations of Hebrews if they had obeyed God.
And state sanctioned murder... And God sanctioned murder...
Or is their any other possible way of interpreting that, which I am missing?
06 Dec 13
Originally posted by stellspalfieYou forget that this happened in an era when the Hebrews had a direct line to God in Moses. Yes, it was because they were commanded by God. God doesn't waste time and resources making people do things for no reason. I covered the reasons why the Canaanites should have been wiped out in an earlier post.
you don't think the Hebrews are murderers? is that because they were commanded by god?
I work with several people who have killed after hearing gods voice commanding them.......are they murderers?
Claiming God talks to you and actually having God command you are two totally different things. But we could compare murder and mental illness all day and get nowhere.
06 Dec 13
Originally posted by SwissGambitNot so. The wrongs of war belong to those committing them, just like any wrongs. This is why we still conduct war crime trials. To prosecute war crimes.
I was thinking along similar lines but you pretty much put it into words. I think there can still be individual wrongs in a war, like killing an unarmed prisoner. But I agree that the wrongs of war are collectively the fault of the group of people waging it.