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Originally posted by generalissimoI'm not taking a position in this discussion, but I take issue with this point - the principle of Occam's Razor is often misunderstood, it's not about the simplest explanation per se, it's more about not needlessly multiplying entities, thus evolution is inherently preferable to creationism. Sorry to interrupt, please carry on fascinating discussion.
I go with Occam's Razor - the simplest explanation is often a good one
so you also believe in creationism because it is the simpler than evolution?
Originally posted by galveston75They've been told by their Priest and Pope's to just come and sit and put your money in the plate as it comes to you and all is fine.
They are not even close as you've been shown over and over as none of their common followers do nothing to teach as Jesus told us all to do. They've been told by their Priest and Pope's to just come and sit and put your money in the plate as it comes to you and all is fine. So show us the amount of time and Bible studies they perform with ones not in the ...[text shortened]... But it's strange you turned your back on the Catholics but for some reason defends them.
Hardly. I think you will be hard put to find in Pope Benedict's writing any statement like 'if you pay for the collection, everything will be fine'. Far from it, Catholicism teaches the real danger of mortal sin, the constant need for the sacraments and the practice of virtues and charity. It is not a religion of comfort.
So show us the amount of time and Bible studies they perform with ones not in their religion and teaching them what Jesus taught?
You will find that Catholics do not study the Bible as much as Protestants. Catholics do not believe Christ wanted biblical scholars; they believe he wanted disciples. Nonetheless, bible study is part of the Church's evangelical activities. Devotional reading for half an hour obtains a plenary indulgence, for example. Most parishes will have a bible study group. And obviously at any Catholic Mass there will be two to thee readings from the Scriptures.
Originally posted by Conrau KThose virtues are great and glad there taught there. It no doubt makes ones who listen a good person. But that is not all one has to do. We are not taught to take in and not give back. Jesus said we are all to be teachers and take that message to peoples of all the nations. It is not a Clergy only assingment but ""all"" in the early congergations partook of that assignment to go to all the nations of that era. Matt 24 & 28 chapters makes that very clear.
[b]They've been told by their Priest and Pope's to just come and sit and put your money in the plate as it comes to you and all is fine.
Hardly. I think you will be hard put to find in Pope Benedict's writing any statement like 'if you pay for the collection, everything will be fine'. Far from it, Catholicism teaches the real danger of mortal sin, t ...[text shortened]... And obviously at any Catholic Mass there will be two to thee readings from the Scriptures.[/b]
And why should we all not be scholars of the Bible? 2 Tim 3: 16,17 differs. It absolutely makes no sense for all except a chosen few to know the bible in and out. When that knowledge is discouraged and kept from the masses and the Catholic church did in the beginning for many, many decades, it can only cause harm and keep ones from knowing the importance of seeing what is expected from us all with helping others worldwide with learning and in turn they teach others. Again Jesus condemend the Clergy class of that exact problem....
Why did the early founders of the Catholic church diviate from Jesus's condemnation of a clergy class setup?
Originally posted by generalissimoI've read that stuff before and no matter what I respond to you or to ones like you it is a useless waist of time. You have your opinion and that's fine. Good day Sir...
in what way are you not a cult? or a group of heretics and lunatics?
how can you even call yourself a christian?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_regarding_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses
oh boy, can you even begin to explain all this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses_and_child_sex_abuse
This is so hypocritical its not even funny.
Originally posted by galveston75Those virtues are great and glad there taught there. It no doubt makes ones who listen a good person. But that is not all one has to do. We are not taught to take in and not give back. Jesus said we are all to be teachers and take that message to peoples of all the nations. It is not a Clergy only assingment but ""all"" in the early congergations partook of that assignment to go to all the nations of that era. Matt 24 & 28 chapters makes that very clear.
Those virtues are great and glad there taught there. It no doubt makes ones who listen a good person. But that is not all one has to do. We are not taught to take in and not give back. Jesus said we are all to be teachers and take that message to peoples of all the nations. It is not a Clergy only assingment but ""all"" in the early congergations partook ...[text shortened]... founders of the Catholic church diviate from Jesus's condemnation of a clergy class setup?
Sure. Every Catholic would agree with you. It is the primary responsibility of the layperson, not the priest, to evangelise.
And why should we all not be scholars of the Bible? 2 Tim 3: 16,17 differs.
I wholeheartedly agree with 2Tim 3:16. It amply proves my point. Scripture is profitable. It may help people come to achieve a virtuous life. However, you have to acknowledge, not everyone is, or even can be, literate and nor does everyone have the time to read the Bible in detail. Catholics recognise the Bible to be a valuable and crucial part of Christian life; the bible, however, is not the be-all-and-end-all.
It absolutely makes no sense for all except a chosen few to know the bible in and out. When that knowledge is discouraged and kept from the masses and the Catholic church did in the beginning for many, many decades, it can only cause harm and keep ones from knowing the importance of seeing what is expected from us all with helping others worldwide with learning and in turn they teach others. Again Jesus condemend the Clergy class of that exact problem....
As I have indicated, laypeople are encouraged to know the Bible. There are indulgences attached to it. I know of laypeople who teach Scripture at Catholic universities; I know laypeople who run Scripture courses in parishes. It was in fact an early Doctor of the Church, St Jerome, who said 'to not know the gospel is to not know Christ'. I am sorry you have been indoctrinated with this pathetic anti-Catholic stereotype that Catholics do not know Scripture.
Originally posted by galveston75So in order words you're just going to avoid embarrassing yourself even more, wise choice, especially considering you couldn't possibly explain all that.
I've read that stuff before and no matter what I respond to you or to ones like you it is a useless waist of time. You have your opinion and that's fine. Good day Sir...
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Originally posted by galveston75You have had no answer so let an atheist / agnostic help out.
Those virtues are great and glad there taught there. It no doubt makes ones who listen a good person.
Why did the early founders of the Catholic church diviate from Jesus's condemnation of a clergy class setup?
Start in a World where most people are not Christians. There was one.
People spreading the word start to get a following and people in different parts of the Roman world want some guidance. Letters are written.
Some people helpfully write stuff down. Like the Gospels say - Jesus omitted to write his own. He's long dead before they are written. He was not inventing a new religion. He positively denied as much - he did not come to change it but to - you know the stuff. He lived as a Jew and died a Jew. That's ok with me.
We do not yet have socialism remember. Most people can can't read at all. If they can, there is not much available. Could be a few centuries before anyone invents printing.
Salvation is quite important of course but best to avoid starvation all the same. Only a very tiny minority can afford to spare time for intellectual games like debating the Trinity. Even in modern times, only a minority of people who actively read (and that is probably already a minority of people) are prepared to give to bible reading the time that might otherwise be spent reading other stuff. Oh there is a lot of other stuff.
Then ignoring all the students, other people who are not students and do not have time to be students, what with milking cows or delivering milk, these people would maybe like guidance so where do they turn if not to people who are not currently cow milking or milk delivering and have the space in their privileged lives to read the stuff and maybe the ability to explain it.
Of course those privileged people certainly abuse the power this hands them. But the need for those people - let us call them clergy - is no less than the need for people to milk cows or deliver milk. Because people milking cows and delivering milk are not stupid and want guidance - they are just not privileged.
So stop talking total nonsense please. Before modern times the option to read your own bible did not exist. So without direct personal revelation just what alternative do you have in mind to a clergy? And get into your heads this fact - Jesus did not invent Christianity. Christianity is a religion based by all means on what the Gospels claim he said but it was constructed long after Jesus had died, risen, gone to heaven and generally stopped being around.
Originally posted by galveston75No you guys (JW's) don't kill you just shun the people who don't believe they way you do. Split family apart ect. Then again maybe people do die when possible they don't get proper medical treatment such as a blood transfusions that can save a life. All because of a mis-understanding of a scripture about eating blood. Twisting the meaning.
Uh..we don't kill if you don't want to become a Witness, as the Catholics did centuries ago.
-Manny-
My challenge to you G75 research your own religion first. The history the reasons for why you believe what you believe. Also actually research Catholicism too. Then you will at least not sound so simple. You speak from utter ignorance at times. Defend you argument with some type of facts. Not just your junk from the watch tower or whatever. Example: Does celibacy correlate with pedophilia? Yes or No or maybe? Research it yourself.
Manny
Originally posted by galveston75I'm not a Catholic but I've known enough of them to know they come is all degrees. Some very educated and scholarly and they could wipe us both up with their bible knowledge. You listen to your Watch Tower and that is all you know. Why don't you go meet some Catholics? You might get shunned if you do though huh?
They are not even close as you've been shown over and over as none of their common followers do nothing to teach as Jesus told us all to do. They've been told by their Priest and Pope's to just come and sit and put your money in the plate as it comes to you and all is fine. So show us the amount of time and Bible studies they perform with ones not in the ...[text shortened]... But it's strange you turned your back on the Catholics but for some reason defends them.
-Manny-
Originally posted by menace71Lol..A vast number of JW's were Catholics. I know thousands. Many were scholars and they say they never knew the Bible until the Witnesses studied with them and when they finally let themselves get the truth in their hearts..and not just using their brain.
I'm not a Catholic but I've known enough of them to know they come is all degrees. Some very educated and scholarly and they could wipe us both up with their bible knowledge. You listen to your Watch Tower and that is all you know. Why don't you go meet some Catholics? You might get shunned if you do though huh?
-Manny-
Knowledge means NOTHING until if get's into the heart.
Originally posted by galveston75I guess we'll just have to rely on your word, which isn't very reliable.
Lol..A vast number of JW's were Catholics. I know thousands. Many were scholars and they say they never knew the Bible until the Witnesses studied with them and when they finally let themselves get the truth in their hearts..and not just using their brain.
Knowledge means NOTHING until if get's into the heart.
I find this highly unlikely, but nevertheless, are you saying they now believe all the stuff JWs believe? If thats the case, Im afraid the only thing they succeeded in was in totally ignoring reason and common sense, not to mention the truth about Jesus.
..and not just using their brain.
LOL, so basically they were told not to question the stuff the JWs teached and instead believe it regardless of how wild it sounds, this just keeps getting better and better.