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    31 May '05 16:50
    Come join Catholic Theology.
    Membership and posting is open to Catholics, non-Catholics, and even non-theists. Come bring your thought here, and open them to discussion and debate.
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Catholic_Theology
    KJN
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    31 May '05 17:00
    Originally posted by KJN
    Come join Catholic Theology.
    Why?
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    31 May '05 17:48
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Why?
    Perhaps they have a good explanation why the pope was member of the nazi party in his youth and as such, swore an oath to follow Adolf Hitler until his death.
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    31 May '05 18:041 edit
    Originally posted by nickybutt
    Perhaps they have a good explanation why the pope was member of the nazi party in his youth and as such, swore an oath to follow Adolf Hitler until his death.
    You don't need to visit a Catholic Theology site for that:

    1. It has nothing to do with theology.
    2. Joseph Ratzinger was 14 and joining the Party was compulsory.

    But that only matters if you're interested in honest, open discussion.
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    31 May '05 18:18
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    You don't need to visit a Catholic Theology site for that:

    1. It has nothing to do with theology.
    2. Joseph Ratzinger was 14 and joining the Party was compulsory.

    But that only matters if you're interested in honest, open discussion.
    1. I agree, it has nothing to do with teology. I just think that such an action should ban you from certain jobs, and being pope is one of them. Actually I can't think of any others.
    2. He still had a choice not to become member. He could have refused. Many young germans did it, sadly many of them were killed because of it, but he still had a choice.
  6. London
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    31 May '05 18:57
    Originally posted by nickybutt
    1. I agree, it has nothing to do with teology. I just think that such an action should ban you from certain jobs, and being pope is one of them. Actually I can't think of any others.
    2. He still had a choice not to become member. He could have refused. Many young germans did it, sadly many of them were killed because of it, but he still had a choice.
    I think that's just daft - you can't condemn a person forever for something he did as a 14-year old scared for his life. Especially he considering he did desert the army a year or so later (when he would certainly be executed if caught). Not everyone who held a Nazi party-card was a Jew-hater; nor every German soldier under the Third Reich an advocate for concentration camps.

    As to being Pope, any faithful man rightfully elected is good enough for me. If he is a person who has sinned in the past, and repents for these sins, then all the better.

    While I respect those young people who died resisting Nazism, I don't blame those who were too afraid to die. I judge a man for what he is now, not for what he did as a boy.
  7. Standard memberDaemon Sin
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    31 May '05 19:12
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    I think that's just daft - you can't condemn a person forever for something he did as a 14-year old scared for his life. Especially he considering he did desert the army a year or so later (when he would certainly be executed if caught). Not everyone who held a Nazi party-card was a Jew-hater; nor every German soldier under the Third Reich an ...[text shortened]... hose who were too afraid to die. I judge a man for what he is now, not for what he did as a boy.
    So matter what sin you've done in the past, as long as you repent after it's okay? 😕
  8. Copenhagen
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    31 May '05 19:14
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    I think that's just daft - you can't condemn a person forever for something he did as a 14-year old scared for his life. Especially he considering he did desert the army a year or so later (when he would certainly be executed if caught). Not everyone who held a Nazi party-card was a Jew-hater; nor every German soldier under the Third Reich an ...[text shortened]... hose who were too afraid to die. I judge a man for what he is now, not for what he did as a boy.
    I'm not condemning him forever. I'm just saying, that there are some jobs (a very few number of jobs, that is) that many people are unsuitable for, and the papacy is one of them. I had no problem with him being the chief architect of the roman catholic church ideology, but to be God's representative here on Earth for a billion people, requires something extraordinaire, that he doesn't have. Think of it, half the Catholic population can't ever be elected Pope, simply because they have the wrong gender for the job. But electing a former nazi, however unwillingly (as I'm sure he was), is not a problem?
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    01 Jun '05 07:56
    Originally posted by Daemon Sin
    So matter what sin you've done in the past, as long as you repent after it's okay? 😕
    Better than OK. We Christians are big on forgiveness.
  10. London
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    01 Jun '05 08:041 edit
    Originally posted by nickybutt
    I'm not condemning him forever. I'm just saying, that there are some jobs (a very few number of jobs, that is) that many people are unsuitable for, and the papacy is one of them. I had no problem with him being the chief architect of the roman catholic church ideology, but to be God's representative here on Earth for a billion people, requires something extraordinaire, that he doesn't have.

    I don't think a person requires anything extraordinary to be Pope. Look at St. Peter - fisherman, simple, unlearned, denied Jesus (thrice) at His trial. In fact, the less extraordinary the person, the better (given fidelity, of course).

    Think of it, half the Catholic population can't ever be elected Pope, simply because they have the wrong gender for the job. But electing a former nazi, however unwillingly (as I'm sure he was), is not a problem?

    That's a cheap shot. The Church does not have the power to ordain women (and hence elect one Pope) - but this has nothing to do with "former Nazis" ("however unwillingly"? Tell me - have you ever done anything in fear for your life??) becoming Pope (after all, there are female ex-Nazis as well!)
  11. Copenhagen
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    01 Jun '05 08:40
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Originally posted by nickybutt

    I don't think a person requires anything extraordinary to be Pope. Look at St. Peter - fisherman, simple, unlearned, denied Jesus (thrice) at His trial. In fact, the less extraordinary the person, the better (given fidelity, of course).

    That's a cheap shot. The Church does not have the power to ordain wome ...[text shortened]... anything in fear for your life??) becoming Pope (after all, there are female ex-Nazis as well!)
    I don't think a person requires anything extraordinary to be Pope. Look at St. Peter - fisherman, simple, unlearned, denied Jesus (thrice) at His trial. In fact, the less extraordinary the person, the better (given fidelity, of course).

    I guess you and I differ then. You are right about the extraordinaire thing, but I still believe that there are certain actions in life that disqualifies you to certain jobs.

    That's a cheap shot. The Church does not have the power to ordain women (and hence elect one Pope) - but this has nothing to do with "former Nazis" ("however unwillingly"? Tell me - have you ever done anything in fear for your life??) becoming Pope (after all, there are female ex-Nazis as well!)

    Sorry about that, I didn't mean to drag the discussion down.
    And yes I have done plenty things in fear of my life, that I am not proud of today. Some of those choises have meant that there are also plenty of jobs that I can't get today because of that.
  12. London
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    01 Jun '05 09:26
    Originally posted by nickybutt
    [b]I don't think a person requires anything extraordinary to be Pope. Look at St. Peter - fisherman, simple, unlearned, denied Jesus (thrice) at His trial. In fact, the less extraordinary the person, the better (given fidelity, of course).

    I guess you and I differ then. You are right about the extraordinaire thing, but I still believe that there ar ...[text shortened]... choises have meant that there are also plenty of jobs that I can't get today because of that. [/b]
    I'm sorry to hear that. Wish you well.

    In Christian living, forgiveness is probably the most important virtue one can practise or gift one can receive.
  13. Copenhagen
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    01 Jun '05 12:35
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    I'm sorry to hear that. Wish you well.

    In Christian living, forgiveness is probably the most important virtue one can practise or gift one can receive.
    Looking at my post makes it more dramatic than it actual was, no need to feel sorry for my sake. The choice was easy and the implications weren't that bad. The jobs I've been excluded from are not interesting anyway.

    I agree that forgiveness is a cornerstone in Christian society, and I practise it widely. However in practical politics, some things can't and shouldn't be forgiven.
  14. London
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    01 Jun '05 15:26
    Originally posted by nickybutt
    Looking at my post makes it more dramatic than it actual was, no need to feel sorry for my sake. The choice was easy and the implications weren't that bad. The jobs I've been excluded from are not interesting anyway.

    I agree that forgiveness is a cornerstone in Christian society, and I practise it widely. However in practical politics, some things can't and shouldn't be forgiven.
    May I ask if your stance is preventive or putative in nature? Meaning, do you believe certain people should be barred from certain positions in order to prevent possible future harm or do you believe they should be barred as punishment for their past actions?
  15. Copenhagen
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    01 Jun '05 17:17
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    May I ask if your stance is preventive or putative in nature? Meaning, do you believe certain people should be barred from certain positions in order to prevent possible future harm or do you believe they should be barred as punishment for their past actions?
    Since I doubt he'll be a bad pope, I guess it's putative.
    But mostly I it's because of the signal value in selecting a former nazi, for precisely that job, that bothers me.
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