1. Account suspended
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    14 Dec '08 01:481 edit
    'Even though we have no idea how immaterial consciousness may arise from material processes, it certainly does, and remains one of the great mysteries, if not the greatest, along with quantum mechanics.'

    after failing to get anything remotely resembling evidence for a biological view of why consciousness has arisen, apparently I'm to ignorant and instead was subject to hysteria and insults by the barrow load, i was interested to read the following article.

    it was originally posted in the chess only forum, but would make interesting reading for those interested here.

    http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=5055

    P.S, Z dude i still have not forgotten about our discussion, as i stated i am fiendishly busy up until January the ninth when i hope to get some respite.
  2. Standard memberWulebgr
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    27 Jul '09 20:06
    I'm still struggling to reconcile that article's assertions with all that I know about the learning process. My general sense is that the authors have taken complex processes and examined a minute part. They account for chess genius in a handful of special cases, but fail to investigate general principles of chess learning for the average improving player. The very methods they denounce have generally been found the most effective for players of above average intelligence that remain, nevertheless, far below the levels of Carlsen's chess genius.
  3. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    28 Jul '09 04:43
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    'Even though we have no idea how immaterial consciousness may arise from material processes, it certainly does, and remains one of the great mysteries, if not the greatest, along with quantum mechanics.'

    after failing to get anything remotely resembling evidence for a biological view of why consciousness has arisen, apparently I'm to ignorant and ...[text shortened]... as i stated i am fiendishly busy up until January the ninth when i hope to get some respite.
    material processes arise from immaterial conciosness. Not the other way aound. search your feelings..you know this to be true๐Ÿ™‚
  4. Account suspended
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    28 Jul '09 09:04
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    material processes arise from immaterial conciosness. Not the other way aound. search your feelings..you know this to be true๐Ÿ™‚
    explain yourself my friend, for either i am too dim to grasp this, which is not a remote possibility, or the words are the wrong way around ๐Ÿ™‚
  5. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    28 Jul '09 13:20
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    material processes arise from immaterial conciosness. Not the other way aound. search your feelings..you know this to be true๐Ÿ™‚
    Emotions are devoid of any rational capacity to think. They're designed to appreciate. Job of thinking is assigned to the human intellect.
  6. Standard memberWulebgr
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    28 Jul '09 14:31
    I wonder if Jacques Loeb might agree.
  7. Standard memberblack beetle
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    28 Jul '09 14:52
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Emotions are devoid of any rational capacity to think. They're designed to appreciate. Job of thinking is assigned to the human intellect.
    It seems to me that without high EQ our high IQ goes down the drain and vice versa; on the other hand, how can an individual be capable of an holistic thought process without solid emotional abilities and a well balanced and interactive IQ/EQ continuum?

    Anyway, I make my decisions according to my intelligence -and as "intelligence" I understand my IQ/EQ plexus๐Ÿ˜ต
  8. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    29 Jul '09 01:34
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    explain yourself my friend, for either i am too dim to grasp this, which is not a remote possibility, or the words are the wrong way around ๐Ÿ™‚
    It is reasoned that the immaterial(psycic)processes spring from the material brain/mind.
    Not so! All comes from the (immaterial) 'Spirit 'Mind'.
    You are not too dim too grasp this.

    Once again: The material 'springs' from the immaterial. Not the other way around.Very simple really.
  9. Standard memberWulebgr
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    29 Jul '09 03:06
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Not the other way around.Very simple really.
    Simple almost certainly is wrong.
  10. Joined
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    29 Jul '09 03:34
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    'Even though we have no idea how immaterial consciousness may arise from material processes, it certainly does, and remains one of the great mysteries, if not the greatest, along with quantum mechanics.'

    after failing to get anything remotely resembling evidence for a biological view of why consciousness has arisen, apparently I'm to ignorant and ...[text shortened]... as i stated i am fiendishly busy up until January the ninth when i hope to get some respite.
    Computers are able to win at chess games but I doubt they can enjoy the game as much. Transistors inside the chips are hardwired. Neurons make their own connections with each other and have an ability to make these connections in response to the physical world from experience. Get enough of that going on and consciousness isn't hard to imagine ๐Ÿ™‚. Self awareness doesn't seem to help my game any though.
  11. Standard memberblack beetle
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    29 Jul '09 04:09
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    Simple almost certainly is wrong.
    I thought that an advanced chessplayer, aware of the quality of Dynamism, is also aware of the fact that we are observers within the observer universe -and every observer, universe included, is constructed out of an interdepended continuum of potentialities for manifested experience. Everything within the universe, the Human included, has not such a thing as an established own-being. We cannot say that this non material continuum exists and at the same time we are unable to say that it does not exist because it applies itself between existence and non-existence as demonstrated by Heisenberg's uncertainty principle;

    This level of reality -the non material, thus "mind-only continuum- is the agent that triggers the manifested (existence of the) universe, and it has the same nature as the plexus known in chess as Dynamism: from the tabiya to the last engame move, the two chassplayers are collapsing the wavefunction (they produce variations that they establish an everchanging position) and they finally bring up a specific and unique (played, therefore manifested) written down string of moves; of course all the played moves are picked out of the seemingly infinite non-manifested potentiality, and this potentiality is the "stuff" from which the played string of moves emerged. I am sure you know that this "stuff" is not material.

    Therefore: the "stuff" of the reality of our kosmos, "matter" included, is strictly "made of" empty cognizance alone, just as it is explained by the philosophic concept known as emptiness/ sunyata/ void
    ๐Ÿ˜ต
  12. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    29 Jul '09 10:45
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    Simple almost certainly is wrong.
    'Simple'. Aren't most 'truths' simple?
    'Certainly wrong'. Why not go the whole hog? Why not say its definatly wrong?

    I assure you the material comes from the immaterial,but unlike chess which has a finite amount of positions, 'the process of manifestation' has infinite combinations of material processes. Mind boggling really!
  13. Standard memberWulebgr
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    29 Jul '09 12:46
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    'Certainly wrong'. Why not go the whole hog? Why not say its definatly wrong?

    "almost definite" is absurd

    I do agree that the true chessboard is a mental construct, but my fine wooden pieces when pitched well are capable of producing brain damage, or of taking out an eye. There's something to be said for material reality.

    Think of the brain as a bundle of wires; think of the diseased brain--whether through birth defects or over-medication--as wires with inadequate insulation. Thinking is the process of electrical impulses.

    Consciousness, on the other hand, cannot be confined so easily. Simple, it would seem, has a low probability of truth or accuracy. Almost certainly, the simplest propositions offer the most complex errors.
  14. Standard memberblack beetle
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    29 Jul '09 13:58
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    "almost definite" is absurd

    I do agree that the true chessboard is a mental construct, but my fine wooden pieces when pitched well are capable of producing brain damage, or of taking out an eye. There's something to be said for material reality.

    Think of the brain as a bundle of wires; think of the diseased brain--whether through birth defects or over- ...[text shortened]... truth or accuracy. Almost certainly, the simplest propositions offer the most complex errors.
    Nope, my dear coach; we are definately capable of playing chess based solely on our ability to Meditate Over Objects -the advanced chessplayer sees not "pawns" and "pieces" and the "chessboard" but s/he is aware of a dynamic circulation of the accumulated energy of the chessmen as a whole on a given spacetime; this energy has peaks and curves at specific points which are regarded as strong and weak quares respectively, and it flows freely or it is deterred according to specific dynamic aspects of the position which they are all well known to you. The material chessmen and the material chessboard sprung from this mind-only conception and not the other way around.

    Also, the "material" universe (the sum of the elements of reality of the observer universe), along with every other observer within it, it emerged out of a huge field of potentiality as I told you earlier. This is the reason why quantum mechanics (along with several ancient philosophic systems) proposes that the "matter" of the universe is more ideal-like than material-like.

    The "material reality" the way you pose it yes, it is existent, but it is phenomenal and it exists solely at a specific level of awareness (it exists solely withing the so called "Floating World"๐Ÿ˜‰ ๐Ÿ˜ต
  15. Standard memberblack beetle
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    29 Jul '09 15:25
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    "almost definite" is absurd

    I do agree that the true chessboard is a mental construct, but my fine wooden pieces when pitched well are capable of producing brain damage, or of taking out an eye. There's something to be said for material reality.

    Think of the brain as a bundle of wires; think of the diseased brain--whether through birth defects or over- ...[text shortened]... truth or accuracy. Almost certainly, the simplest propositions offer the most complex errors.
    Furthermore, it seems to me that we are not our thoughts.

    I cannot conceive the brain solely as a bundle of wires because it is in fact an organon that during its operational process it offers to its user a specific and individual "view" (awareness/ feeling/ interpretation) of the "reality" that we monitor "out there" according to its everchanging and unique modification -and this approach in my opinion appears to be conducted under the theta waves within a process that enables us to evaluate and to file in specific archives our miscellaneous cognitive patterns regarding everything. But these patterns are not at all objective because they are created also by our preoccupations, and our preoccupations are caused by our fixed ideas and theories and beliefs and they are not in correspondence with the so called "objective reality". We simply have ideas regarding the nature of the "world out there" during our never ending evolution. This is the reason why, for example, today we use not anymore the newtonean physics in order to define and to decipher the "matter" known as quanta, which they have an essence more ideal-like than material-like and they lack of a stable definition (they may be seen as "particles" or as "waves" ).

    So for the time being it is clear to me that the buck stops at the ideal-like essence of the universe and of every other observer -we are simply in front and within a vast sum of miscellaneous interactive continuums that they are include numerous observers that they are all manifested from the field of the infinite potentialities. This approach becomes quite clear once we realise too that our products -every product of ours!- are conceived merely as an "idea" and only afterwards they can turn into material objects by means of a constructing process that we conduct in our "real world"
    ๐Ÿ˜ต
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