Chocolate teapots

Originally posted by twhitehead
What do you mean by 'aspire'? Do you mean get nice warm fuzzy feelings about but never actually do?
Why would you not actually do as Christ suggested? Why is it unworkable for you?

Check the dictionary for the meaning of 'aspire'.
I never said what I would do or not do.
Neither did I say its unworkable for me.

Furthermore I never discuss my own personal life on the internet, neither do I ask anyone about theirs. I discuss the doctrine and teachings of Christ. Nothing more.

Originally posted by knightmeister
A sinless life is perfection and should be aspired to.
---------------rajk-----------------

No argument with that. It should be aspired to. But it also needs to be recognised that one is not condemned if one doesn't get there.

This is where grace comes in.

Nobody should claim that anyone is condemned in any circumstances becuase we dont know that. Same for grace, we are saved by grace, the free gift of salvation, but that does not mean that 100% of mankind is saved. It depends on the judgment and mercy of Christ.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Thats non-authoritative! Or does the rule only apply to certain topics?

[b]Christ is above Paul. Paul was sent to set up the early churches and preach the doctrines taught by Christ.
So, if Paul was teaching the doctrines taught by Christ, should we listen to his teachings or not? If we should not, then why was he sent? If we should then your com ...[text shortened]... ritative source. Or does God possibly talk to other people but never about Grace and Salvation?[/b]

I will make this easy for you to understand.
I believe in the Bible and the words of Christ first and Paul second.
I believe there is a God and I dont discuss why. Thats why you wont ever see me discussing whether or not there is a God or if the Bible is true or not.
You will never see me condemn another religion. It may be that God speaks to people in other religions as well. I dont know.

If you looking for a argument, lets talk about what Christ said about how to attain salvation.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Nobody should claim that anyone is condemned in any circumstances becuase we dont know that. Same for grace, we are saved by grace, the free gift of salvation, but that does not mean that 100% of mankind is saved. It depends on the judgment and mercy of Christ.

I would agree. The advantage of the grace model is that it offers assurance to the believer.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I would agree. The advantage of the grace model is that it offers assurance to the believer.

Grace does not apply to everyone. That assurance that grace will apply is dependent on your both your faith and works. People have misinterpreted what Paul said. I hope you dont mind me not quoting Paul or Christ here as we have done that already ad nauseum already in the last couple years.

My interpretation of grace : If a workman's normal pay is $1 per day and lets say the boss gives them $100 instead, then that $99 extra is above and beyond what they have worked for and thats a free gift or grace. Note that those unemployed cannot obtain the $100. Those who were employed but did not work still cannot obtain anything - not the $1, neither the $99.

For Christians, Our faith is demonstrated by working for that particular employer. Our works although insignificant (in relation to our pay) and worthless, is important as it is a demonstration of our loyalty and obedience to the boss.

That assurance in my opinion is there if we have both faith and works. Faith alone is dead. Works alone is filthy rags. Both are necessary ingredients for salvation. Thats my take on grace.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Furthermore I never discuss my own personal life on the internet, neither do I ask anyone about theirs. I discuss the doctrine and teachings of Christ. Nothing more.

That is perfectly reasonable. However you could still answer the question in the general sense ie why do you think other Christians would have a problem actually implementing Jesus' words? Or are you the exact opposite of knightemeister in that you don't care about whether the doctrine can be implemented, you only discuss the doctrine.

Originally posted by Rajk999
If you looking for a argument, lets talk about what Christ said about how to attain salvation.

First I want to dispute your claim that Jesus is the only authority on the matter.
Are you changing your claim to "Jesus is the highest authority on the matter unless God overrides him and where Jesus has nothing to say, Paul and others may also be authorities"?

Originally posted by twhitehead
.. why do you think other Christians would have a problem actually implementing Jesus' words? ...

The answer to that is that its contrary to human nature to give away material possessions to the point where we have very little. It removes the security that material wealth provides and leaves a person vulnerable. I guess this is the reason why Christ said that its a difficult task to follow him and many rich people probably wont get salvation.

There are people who are capable of doing it. Also Im judging from my personal experience with Christians, many of whom are of the opinion that works dont count and are not required.

Originally posted by twhitehead
First I want to dispute your claim that Jesus is the only authority on the matter.
Are you changing your claim to "Jesus is the highest authority on the matter unless God overrides him and where Jesus has nothing to say, Paul and others may also be authorities"?

I concede that point. Your phrasing of it is more accurate. I would be interested in finding out where if ever God overrides Christ. I know that there are a few instances of Paul saying things which clarify and expand on what Christ said. I would doubt if he said things that were totally new that impacts on ones salvation ... what exactly are you referring to?

Originally posted by Rajk999
The answer to that is that its contrary to human nature to give away material possessions to the point where we have very little. It removes the security that material wealth provides and leaves a person vulnerable. I guess this is the reason why Christ said that its a difficult task to follow him and many rich people probably wont get salvation.

There a ...[text shortened]... ce with Christians, many of whom are of the opinion that works dont count and are not required.

But presumably your explanation means that they don't take Jesus seriously?

Originally posted by Rajk999
... what exactly are you referring to?

I was mostly interested in showing the ridiculousness of your initial assertion.
If for example the Pope has something to say about Grace and Salvation, then you will discard it out of hand because you claim Jesus is the sole authority on the matter.
However, now that you admit such a claim is not valid, you must either claim that Jesus has said something in contradiction to the Pope or that the Pope has not received any form of communication from God, or has incorrectly interpreted something from Jesus or Paul and so on. Simply dismissing him out of hand is ridiculous.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But presumably your explanation means that they don't take Jesus seriously?

Some dont. Some do alot of charitable work. Christ will judge that.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I was mostly interested in showing the ridiculousness of your initial assertion.
If for example the Pope has something to say about Grace and Salvation, then you will discard it out of hand because you claim Jesus is the sole authority on the matter.
However, now that you admit such a claim is not valid, you must either claim that Jesus has said somethi ...[text shortened]... rpreted something from Jesus or Paul and so on. Simply dismissing him out of hand is ridiculous.

To be honest I know very little about what the Pope says. If the Pope or Charles Russell for that matter, says anything about salvation I know I wont really care that much, as what they say is often for their own following.

The words of Christ is sufficient for me.. not that I am discarding anything said by anyone. Its just that I personally choose to stick with Christ' teachings and those of Paul who enlarged on what Christ taught.

Originally posted by Rajk999
To be honest I know very little about what the Pope says. If the Pope or Charles Russell for that matter, says anything about salvation I know I wont really care that much, as what they say is often for their own following.

The words of Christ is sufficient for me.. not that I am discarding anything said by anyone. Its just that I personally choose to stick with Christ' teachings and those of Paul who enlarged on what Christ taught.

interesting since Charles Russell has been dead for almost one hundred years, how do you suppose he speaks?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
interesting since Charles Russell has been dead for almost one hundred years, how do you suppose he speaks?

And how long has Christ left the earth?