Christ and Paul Contradict ?

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Next up: Paul teaches we are eternally secure, but Jesus teaches insecurity to a sinning believer.

Can Jesus teach some sort of insecurity to a sinning believer and still keep a promise of eternal life ?

Put another way - Can Jesus teach eternal life and yet the possibility of punishment to a sinning believer.

A YES or a NO would do it.

Another question

Have you noticed the raging debate between me and Rajk999 about three passages saying some believers would not inherit the kingdom of God?
Those passages being:

First Corinthians 6:9-11

Ephesians 5:5

Galatians 5:19-21

Would you say Paul in those verses is saying "Christian, YOU are SECURE from NEVER BEING punished by your Lord Who has saved you."

For years here I have never changed my concept.
The gift of eternal life and eternal redemption does not mean security from never being disciplined by Christ.

Now you accuse me of going only after low hanging fruit so to speak.
But in this list of contradiction there are quite a few which are general in a sneaky way to catch the GULLIBLE. Maybe some sunday school kids coming out of the candy store who haven't yet on their own initiative read through much of the New Testament rather carefully and with some spiritual experience.

Frankly, some of the submitted "contradictions" I found embarrassing even for an atheist to use.

Some are like saying "Hey the Bible teaches that money solves every problem" .

Or "Hey, Jesus says hate your family"

Or "Hey, Jesus said gouge out your eye and cut off your hand."

Low hanging fruit?

ANYWAY the Bible shows eternal security concerning redemption and eternal life yet no absolute security from discipline either now or after the second coming of Christ.

@rajk999 said
This is not true at all. Many Christian churches preach that. Paul and the Apostles preach no such doctrine. They instead continually warn Christians that a life of unrighteousness means no eternal life.

Security is for righteous Christians.

How do you interpret Romans 8:1:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Next up: Paul teaches we are eternally secure, but Jesus teaches insecurity to a sinning believer.

Can Jesus teach some sort of insecurity to a sinning believer and still keep a promise of eternal life ?

Put another way - Can Jesus teach eternal life and yet the possibility of punishment to a sinning believer.

...[text shortened]... ernal life yet no absolute security from discipline either now or after the second coming of Christ.

Yes.

Jesus is repeatedly warning Christians to feel insecure about their salvation when sinning. All the ‘weeping and gnashing’ parables fit in this category. All the non-parabolic statements about hell fire for misbehavior by “anyone” fit in the same category. “Every tree that lacks good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire.” (Mat.7:19.)

@ghost-of-a-duke said
How do you interpret Romans 8:1:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

That passage says exactly what I said. There is NO condemnation ONLY for those who are in Christ

To be in Christ means to walk after the Spirit. = Live righteously and keep the commandments. If someone professes to be in Christ that is of no value

To walk after the flesh = to live in sin and disobey the commandments

Only the righteous have any security or guarantee of eternal life.
The sinful and evil are only guaranteed damnation.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Yes.

Jesus is repeatedly warning Christians to feel insecure about their salvation when sinning. All the ‘weeping and gnashing’ parables fit in this category. All the non-parabolic statements about hell fire for misbehavior by “anyone” fit in the same category. “Every tree that lacks good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire.” (Mat.7:19.)

Correct. Security and peace of mind and guarantee of eternal life is for the righteous and for those who keep the commandments.

Talkers, hypocrites, mouth worshippers and those disobedient to the commandments are damned.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Can Jesus teach some sort of insecurity to a sinning believer and still keep a promise of eternal life ?

Yes.

Thankyou.
And Paul can and DID also.

In fact so did Peter and John.
Then there is no contradiction between Christ's teaching and Paul's faithful teaching.

Jesus is repeatedly warning Christians to feel insecure about their salvation when sinning.

I would say that Christ's message was balanced.

Let's take an example. I think it is more nuanced Ghost. Here is an example of the balanced message of Christ.
Take Matthew 10:28-31

" And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. (v.28)

Are not two sparrows sold for an assarion? And not one of them will fall to the earth apart from your Father. (v.29)

But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. (v.30)

Therefore do not fear; you are of more value than many sparrows." (v.31)

In verse 28 He tells His disciples WHO they really should fear, God.
Then in verse 31 He encourages them to "Fear not" because God cares for them in every minute detail.

This is balanced like the TWO WINGS a bird needs to fly.
1.) Fear God with such authority and power.
2.) Fear NOT for God has such knowledge, care, authority, and power.

Christ is balanced.
His Apostle Paul is balanced as well in the same way.

Now if some Christians are lopsided and over emphasize one side to the denial of the other side, that is not the fault of the New Testament. We encourage them to learn what is written and to learn AGAIN it is written.

Why is it that after 12 or more years this is STILL a dilemma with usually the SAME few people ?

All the ‘weeping and gnashing’ parables fit in this category. All the non-parabolic statements about hell fire for misbehavior by “anyone” fit in the same category. “Every tree that lacks good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire.” (Mat.7:19.)

I'll tell you what. You be an ATHEIST and forget the whole thing. Obviously, an atheist has no sense of consequence one way or the other.

Now me as a Christian, when I lead someone to meet the Lord Jesus, I realize that I have on my hands a spiritual babe at first.

FIRST I help them to see the security of eternal redemption right out of the mouth of Jesus Himself.

WITH TIME as they mature, I bring them on from the MILK of the word to the more solid MEAT. They must realize that before the eternal age begins there is the preliminary one thousand year kingdom. And this is a matter of reward or discipline.

But first I always establish their appreciation for eternal life as secured by CHRIST'S finished work. It is eternally secure. As they mature they need to realize that forgiveness is not an end in itself. Forgiveness is FOR living a kingdom of God daily life.

This is brief, concise, and trying not to be too verbose.
Your details would require more attention though.

@sonship said

I'll tell you what. You be an ATHEIST and forget the whole thing. Obviously, an atheist has no sense of consequence one way or the other.

Yes, yes, it is not becoming for an atheist to bring to your attention biblical contradictions that you struggle to explain away.

I don't have to speak duck to feed it bread.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

es, yes, it is not becoming for an atheist to bring to your attention biblical contradictions that you struggle to explain away.

I don't have to speak duck to feed it bread.

I got NOTHING to eat from you ever ... feeder.
I may have to pop your proud strutting bubble by telling you that I didn't NEED an atheist to ferret out some out of context slippery Donald Trump like apparent contradictions.

"Why, Christians read and don't think like us atheists!"
Give me a break.

Get over yourself a little. Do you think I never noticed paradoxes and puzzles as I have been studying the Bible for these years?

You actually think like I never stop to notice some different kinds of passages that I mused over or contemplated?

It took an atheist like you to assemble some spliced and diced out many contexted sentences and hold them up ---- "Oooo! Oooooo! Christ contradicts Paul." Give me a break.

I can recall one of the early paperback books I got from some Christian book store in the early 1971-ish timeframe on skeptic's "contradictions". It was full of them. I just don't have that book anymore as many other early books that came and went in my possession over a long time.

@sonship

Going from the back of the line now and maybe working up to where I left off.

• Paul Says Flesh will not inherit the Kingdom of God, but Jesus in Flesh ascended to heaven, and promises to resurrect our bodies likewise to the Kingdom of the New Jerusalem, giving us the same physical resurrection that Jesus had.

Christ ascended to heaven in a glorified body. The same one He used to enter into a locked room with, appearing suddenly and unexpectedly according to typical known physics.

This is another booboo of a GOTCHA! contradiction between the Gospels and the Epistles of Paul.

Only those with a resurrected and glorified body or a transfigured and glorified body inherit the kingdom of God in the millennial age.

Paul said He will make our bodies like unto His own glorified body.

" For our commonwealth exists in the heavens, from which also we eagerly await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ

Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of His glory, according to His operation by which He is able even to subject all things to Himself. " (Phil. 3:20,21)

Did you get that folks? He will transfigure our bodies to be conformed to His OWN - "the body of His glory".

Same person - but a resurrected / glorified and transfigured body.
Don't ask me about the scientific physics of it.

Thanks Apostle John also - "We will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is." (See all of 1 John 3:2)

He is indwelling in our spirit. He will saturate the soul and His glory will burst out in the transfigured body at rapture and/or resurrection and rapture.

" . . . the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you the hope of glory." (Col. 1:27)

Hmmm, agrees with Jesus -

"Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father." (Matt. 13:43a)

@sonship said

"Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father." (Matt. 13:43a)

The righteous that will shine forth like the sun in the Kingdom of there Father are clearly defined by Jesus:

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? (Matthew 25:34-37 KJV)

In the 14 yrs I have know you, you have never, not once, not one solitary occasion told anyone what Jesus and the Apostles called righteous, and this is what leads to eternal life.

You are false teacher and you will surely take your place among the goats, who begs for mercy but it will be too late.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: (Matthew 25:44-46 KJV)

@sonship

• Paul Says He Could Be Justified of The Sin that Never Could be Justified under the Law given Moses (Blasphemy), but Jesus says to the contrary that it is The Unpardonable Sin.

He must be trying to speak about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Rather than me work hard to figure out exactly what Ghost is saying, he can if he wants put more details on this GOTCHA! .

At this point it may suffice to say that "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" may refer to something that only those opposers could possibly have done during Christ's walk on earth before His crucifixion and resurrection.

They accused Him of casting out demons by the power of Satan.
Jesus said they went too far and committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
There would be no forgiveness to them in this age or in the next age.

Few Bible teachers I have heard think it is possible for this unforgivable sin to be committed today since the ascension of Christ after His death and resurrection. I think I would agree. If I haven't sinned unpardonably by now then redemption is surely as extensive as Paul taught it was.

Maybe some ultra "Holiness" Pentecostal types might disagree. I don't know.

@sonship

• Paul Says Salvation Does Not Depend Upon Exertion, But Jesus Says It Does.

Let the critic explain Paul's word -

"So then, my beloved ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure." (From Phil. 2:12,13)

I would ask the critic what he means by "salvation".

Anyway, here Paul says WORK OUT along with the WORKING GOD.
Anyway, here Paul says God is operating in your both the working and the willing SO WORK along with God - work out your own salvation.

He is talking about the SALVATION of the sanctification and transformation of the fallen soul. God's operating. You, Christian, CO-operate with God. Work it out along with God's working.

No contradiction between Christ and His apostle here either.
Unless Ghost doubles down and tries to rescue this one with more proof texts.

Notice Paul says "with fear and trembling".

I think by now I have written something about all twenty seven "contradictions".

Flag me as missing one if you want.

@sonship said
@sonship

Going from the back of the line now and maybe working up to where I left off.

I love how you call me proud and then proceed to reply to yourself.