Christ and Paul Contradict ?

@sonship said

Jesus referred to righteous men who were COMPARATIVELY righteous in relation to OTHERS of their generation. Obedient prophets and those who believed them were COMPARIATIVELY righteous in comparison with the majority of their contemporaries who disbelieved and disobeyed the prophets.

Why have you added COMPARIATIVELY to scripture? (apart from it suiting your purpose).

@sonship said

I already showed the the "just" and "holy" prophet John the Baptist did not DARE to consider himself as righteous as the Son of God before Whom he came to announce.

The truly righteous never would.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Why have you added COMPARIATIVELY to scripture? (apart from it suiting your purpose).

To help you to understand, in spite of your stubborn unwillingness to.

Abel, compared to Cain who killed him, was shedding "righteous blood." He was justified for his believing.

Abel was NOT so righteous that he did not need to present an atoning sacrificial offering for himself.

So Paul's word of no one being justified by works of the law would be true of Abel, though he shed a martyr's righteous blood.

How come God accepted Abel's offering but rejected Cain's?

Abel's offering looked prophetically forward to the offering of the body and blood of the Son of God.

Cain looked unto his own righteousness to justify him before God. And God could not accept Cain's bloodless offering. Though it represented his good works as a farmer.

By works of the law shall no flesh be justified. You too. So believe into Christ and be saved from eternal judgment.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

The truly righteous never would.

Possibly that is a point.
That means a truly righteous person [to your standard] would realize he is short of something before God.

So why don't you realize that you need a Savior God?
You know a big sinner like you is not prepared to give an answer to God for many of the things that you have done.

How are you going to possibly explain before God about your ___________________?

Believe that the blood of Jesus Christ God's Son cleanses us from every sin.
You know you need this divine cleansing.

@sonship

• Paul Excludes Eating With Sinners But Christ's Example We Are To Follow, and the Lost Sheep Parable, Is Contrary.

The sinners who eat together at the Lord's Table in the church life are forgiven sinners - EVERY ONE of them.

If Paul taught that no Christian should eat with a sinner then he would not have echoed Christ to have the Lord's Supper. That is because EVERYONE invited to the Lord's Supper is a justified and forgiven repentant SINNER. The blood has been shed for him. The body of Jesus has been broken for him. He comes with other forgiven sinners to remember the Lord at His table, at the Lord's Supper.

That's why they are there.

Paul did say that the toxically unrepentant ones do not eat with. He did not say they were not Christian brothers. He said, for the churching people to not eat with a toxically unreepentant immoral person so that such a one may be ashamed and come around to repenting of his horrible behavior.

Then he said to receive him in love to comfort him. The EXAMPLE of this is given in his First and Second letters to the Corinthians. Look at First Corinthians chapter Five for background.

• Paul Excludes Eating With Sinners But Christ's Example We Are To Follow, and the Lost Sheep Parable, Is Contrary.

This is another twisted accusation to portray Paul the Apostle as not as loving as the Lord Jesus Whom he served.

In the churches, Paul was no FOOL. The toxic, unrepentant, habitually immoral brother Christians should be admonished. Don't eat with such a one, Paul instructed the churching believers. Paul instructed them not to be stupid about it. Wait until such a toxic contagiously immoral Christian allows Christ to deliver him from his besetting immorality. "A little leaven leavens the whole lump. " (1 Cor. 5:6)

Otherwise his contagion might spread and ruin the holy church life. He is to be admonished as a backslidden brother.

Compare with Christ's words in Matthew 18:15-19.

No SERIOUSLY, GO compare Paul's way with what Jesus spoke in MATTHEW 18:15-19.

Paul's teaching to the local church echoes the same principles.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

So why don't you realize that you need a Savior God?
You know a big sinner like you is not prepared to give an answer to God for many of the things that you have done.

How are you going to possibly explain before God about your ___________________?

Believe that the blood of Jesus Christ God's Son cleanses us from every sin.
You know you need this divine cleansing.

God see's into the heart. He has no ears for empty words.

@sonship said

• Paul Excludes Eating With Sinners But Christ's Example We Are To Follow, and the Lost Sheep Parable, Is Contrary.

This is another twisted accusation to portray Paul the Apostle as not as loving as the Lord Jesus Whom he served.

In the churches, Paul was no FOOL. The toxic, unrepentant, habitually immoral brother Christians should be admonished. Don' ...[text shortened]... poke in MATTHEW 18:15-19.

Paul's teaching to the local church echoes the same principles.

'But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.' 1 Cor. 5:9-13

This simply isn't compatible with Jesus in Luke 15:1 - the Pharisees accused Jesus of error, saying: "This man receives sinners and eats with them." Then Jesus defends this practice in a Parable of the Lost Sheep -- that if you have a lost sheep, you don't wait for it to come home, but you go out to where you can find it, and then lead it back home. Jesus defends proactively socializing with sinners so as to bring them home as lost sheep, which included eating with sinners.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

'But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.' 1 Cor. 5:9-13

This simply isn't compatible with Jesus in Luke 15:1 - the Pharisees accused Jesus of error, saying: "This man receives sinners and eats with them."

In His gospel outreach Jesus ate with those whom He was trying to reach with the Gospel of the Kingdom. He contacted all kinds of people including lepers, prostitutes, tax collectors.

Paul preached the Gospel and those who got saved he arranged into churches, local churches. These require maintenance because they WERE of one kind of living and were not LEAVING that way to be sanctified in Christ.

Those who expressed, in Corinthian church, that they had NO INTENTION of letting Christ deliver them from their sinful lifestyles, Paul exhorted them to do the right thing. They were to effectively quarantine such.

Jesus taught the same even mentioning the church.
"Moreover if your brother sins against you, go, reprove him between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not hear you, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

And if he refuses to hear them, TELL IT TO THE CHURCH; and if he refuses to hear the church also, let him be to you just like a Gentile and a tax collector." (Matt. 18:15-17)

1.) The church to which they take the problem is the local church. Such a practical problem cannot be taken to the universal church. So Christ means take the offending unrepentant brother's problem to the local church.

2.) In practice this should mean take it to the leadership of the local church expressed as a plurality of elder shepherding overseers. Though it could possibly sometimes mean the problem is taken to the local church congregation at large.

3.) The following verses about the power of prayer invested in two or three gathered into the name of the Lord are for the purpose of restoring or loosing (or binding) the offending brother who has been quarantined. Extensive powerful prayer has to be rendered to God to deal with the situation.

" ... let him be to you just like the Gentile and the tax collector. Truly I say to you, Whatever you bind on the earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on the earth shall have been loosed in heaven. Again, truly I say to you that if two of you are in harmony on earth concerning any matter for which they ask, it will be done for them from My Father who is in the heavens." (v.18,19)

This shows that the problem is a spiritual one. Spiritual forces behind the problem need intense harmonious and authoritative prayer from those in one accord and who only have the Lord's interests at heart. Binding and loosing with spiritual power through prayer is needed to deal with the wayward brother's behavior.

This is so much like Paul's way with the sinning brother in the church in Corinth that it shows Paul's adherence to Christ's teaching not some original invention of Paul.

Then Jesus defends this practice in a Parable of the Lost Sheep -- that if you have a lost sheep, you don't wait for it to come home, but you go out to where you can find it, and then lead it back home.

You miss the point that the lost sheep is SEPERATED from the other sheep.
After the offending brothers is quarantined in Matthew 18:17 because he refuses to hear the church about his offenses, he is treated as rather toxic and destructive to the church.

Now, the two or three who come together to intensely pray for such a backslider with authoritative spiritual prayer, waring with the dark spiritual forces that have this brother acting badly, MAY INDEED, after they have received leading from the Lord, go to that person to try to reconcile him to the Lord and subsequently to the church.

To treat him as a tax collector means to effectively think of him as an virtual unbeliever in all practical purposes. He must be treated as if he has to start from ground level repentance.

And this is what happened under Paul's instruction and the Corinthians church's intuitive behavior.

Furthermore John says that the sinning brother Christian can be given life and restored sometimes. That is if he has not committed so serious an offense that God is going to discipline him with physical death.

"If anyone sees his brother ...[BROTHER] ... sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask and he will give life to him, to those sinning not unto death; I do not say that he should make request concerning that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16,17)

In the local church there is the possibility of RESTORAL back to divine life. The normal Christian can "give life", meaning convey Jesus' love and blessing, to the backslidden one. That is if the sin is not overly serious so that the Lord is disciplining the backslidden Christian with physical death. That sometimes happens (1 Cor 11:30).

Some of the Corinthian backsliders were being disciplined with sickness. Others Paul said God allowed to die because of their toxic bad behavior. (1 Cor. 11:30).

Jesus defends proactively socializing with sinners so as to bring them home as lost sheep, which included eating with sinners.

Your attempt to portray the Apostle Paul as an unsympathetic Gospel preacher cannot be taken seriously.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

God see's into the heart. He has no ears for empty words.

Are you sure you are an atheist?

YOU KNOW and GOD KNOWS.
God knows MORE than you know.

So if you know you can be sure that God knows even better and deeper.

So I left it blank "______________?". I know that you have a history just like EVERY OTHER sinful person on the planet. It doesn't matter what you as an atheist "lacks" either this or "lacks" that.

Your conscience does not "lack" knowing that you have messed up many times in your life. Don't waste your breath denying it.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Why have you added COMPARIATIVELY to scripture? (apart from it suiting your purpose).

He does that all the time. He is a FIBT [Fellow of the Institute of Bible Twisters]. Got his training and certification from Witness Lee who started the Institute. After this intensive training, one cannot separate and differentiate what the bible actually says, from what one would like it to say. Therefore it all comes out as one. The poor brainwashed man just cannot help it. He even inserts text in bible scriptures as if it were Gods truth. Another feature of this training is that the FIBT is genuinely surprised when others are not able to agree with his interpretation even after years of repeating the same doctrine dozens of times..

@sonship said
@Rajk999

Judas Iscariot's promise of eternal life was revoked.

Where ?
Find me a passage where where Judas ever referred to Jesus as "Lord".

What is the relevance of a passage where Judas refers to Jesus as Lord? You are really a twisted mouth worshipping Christian. Calling Lord and saying Jesus is Lord means absolutely nothing. Jesus said these are mouth worshipping hypocrites that he will say he does not know.

Where is the bible reference for Matthew calling Jesus Lord?
Where is the bible reference for Mark calling Jesus Lord?
Where is the bible reference for Luke calling Jesus Lord?
Where is the bible reference for John calling Jesus Lord?
Where is the bible reference for Peter calling Jesus Lord?
Where is the bible reference for James calling Jesus Lord?

Is there any? These disciples were all given the Holy Spirit but failure to live righteously means that the Holy Spirit can and will be revoked. Your doctrine that God is powerless to revoke the gift of the Holy Spirit and cast them in hell with no eternal life is complete hog wash.

Here Jesus gave the 12 disciples [including Judas] the power to do certain things. This is the power of the Holy Spirit:

And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. (Matthew 10:1 KJV)

It is no different from the Holy Spirit given to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost.

@sonship said

Are you sure you are an atheist?

Does it matter?

The work of the law is written on all our hearts, our consciences bearing witness.

I am not writing this for Rajk999's sake. This is for those curious as to how I would answer this person.

Asking him for a reference to Judas calling Jesus Lord, he provides none. But he makes a valid point that perhaps other disciples could not be seen calling Jesus Lord EITHER. So there! Rajk999 would argue.

Where is the bible reference for Matthew calling Jesus Lord?

It would be incredible if the author of The Gospel according to Matthew did not himself believe what was being taught in his book about Jesus.

Where is the bible reference for Mark calling Jesus Lord?

Mark, a companion of Peter and writer of The Gospel according to Mark surely believed what was in his own writings about Jesus. And his writings traditionally are thought to be sourced in the recollections of Peter.

Mark 1:1 - "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, ... A voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the LORD; make straight His paths."

Mark ends his writing in chapter 16 like this:
"So the the LORD Jesus, after speaking to them, was taken up into heaven and sat at the right hand of God. (v.19) And they went out and preached everywhere, the LORD working with them and confirming the word by the accompanying signs." (v.20)

Where is the bible reference for Luke calling Jesus Lord?

It would also make no sense the the writer of the Gospel of Luke disbelieved his own writings. Luke was a traveling companion with the Apostle Paul. We can rest assured that he gave up his day job of being a physician because he believed what Paul was preaching about the Lord Jesus.

Luke also wrote the book of Acts where he says Jesus presented Himself alive to His disciples after His resurrection with many irrefutable proofs (Acts 1:3). God had Luke write two books of the New Testament. Surely Luke believed in the LORD Jesus Christ.

Where is the bible reference for John calling Jesus Lord?

Right. John, the author of The Gospel of John may not have known Jesus as his Lord ? This is not a credible conspiracy theory. John writes towards the end of his gospel:

"Moreover indeed many other signs also Jesus dud before His disciples, which are not written in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and believing, you may have life in His name." (John 20:30,31).

How could John write such and NOT own Jesus as his Lord? And the disciple whom Jesus loved was most likely John the writer of the Gospel of John. And that beloved disciple called Jesus the Lord.

"Then that disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, It is the Lord!" (See John 21:7a)

Where is the bible reference for Peter calling Jesus Lord?

In his epistles, Ie. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ..." (1 Pet. 1:3)

In Luke 5:8 Peter said "And when Simon Peter saw this, he fell down at Jesus knees, saying, Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, LORD."

Where is the bible reference for James calling Jesus Lord?

The disciple James was with the disciples who rejoiced when "they saw the Lord" after His resurrection (John 20:20).

"The disciples [minus Thomas who appeared latter and of course Judas] rejoiced at seeing the Lord." (John 20:20).

James the brother of the Lord called Jesus Lord in his letter:

"James, a slave of God and of the LORD Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes in the dispersion: Rejoice!" (James 1:1)

The twelve were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit when they went out with the seventy to cast out demons and heal the sick and preach the Gospel. But the power of the Spirit was with them.

Not until the resurrection was the Spirit of Jesus Christ said to be within them.

"Even the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him because He abides with you and shall be in you." (John 14:17)

Because the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ in another form, He was WITH them physically in Jesus - "He abides WITH you ...". And after resurrection this same Person in His form of the Spirit would be IN them - "He abides WITH you, and shall be IN you." (14:17b)

This One who will be IN them after having been WITH them is Jesus Himself in the form of the another Comforter.

"... because He abides with you and shall be in you, I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you." (v.17b,18) .

Judas never received the Holy Spirit within him. But as the power with them all the twelve disciples could access this power before Jesus died and rose.

He was WITH them. He allowed them the power of the Spirit to preach. But He was not IN them, not leaving them as orphans only after His death and resurrection for their salvation.

"In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me and I in you." (John 14:20).

At that time after He rose from the dead the remaining disciples had a new life because Jesus lived in resurrection:

"Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live." (v.19)

Here Jesus gave the 12 disciples [including Judas] the power to do certain things. This is the power of the Holy Spirit:

And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. (Matthew 10:1 KJV)

They had a power to use the name. The Holy Spirit was not yet within any of them.

They RECEIVED within them the Holy Spirit on the evening that Jesus rose from the dead:

"When therefore it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and while the doors were shut where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them, Peace be to you." (John 20:19)

After they rejoiced to see "the Lord" raised from the dead, He then breathed into them to receive Himself in the form of the another Comforter the Holy Spirit.

"Then Jesus said to them again, Peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you. And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT." (John 20:21,22)

In Pentacost He again clothed them with power by the outward pouring of the Holy Spirit upon them. But now they also had Jesus the Lord in them as "a life giving Spirit". For "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)