Christian faith is a purifying force for reason...

Originally posted by kirksey957
Read this here article and see if it won't make a Christian out of you.

http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=3579

Brilliant.

I especially liked this particular line, "Nor is mystery another name for a spirituality so vague that it cannot distinguish between John of the Cross and Max Lucado."

Originally posted by kirksey957
Read this here article and see if it won't make a Christian out of you.

http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=3579

I detest the way that Christianity does the whole "if something contradicts scripture, it must be a test of faith" crap. It makes the whole boiling of religion completely untestable. If religion cannot make well defined testable predictive statements it can never be seen as any substitute for science.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
I detest the way that Christianity does the whole "if something contradicts scripture, it must be a test of faith" crap. It makes the whole boiling of religion completely untestable. If religion cannot make well defined testable predictive statements it can never be seen as any substitute for science.

Francis Bacon, a Christian, established the scientific process. He said, "A little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion." Was science ever meant to be a substitute for religion?

Originally posted by Jorge Borges
Francis Bacon, a Christian, established the scientific process. He said, "A little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion." Was science ever meant to be a substitute for religion?

The question is, if you see physical evidence that contradicts the bible, what do you believe? The bible or your lying eyes?

There is an abundance of physical evidence that the world is far older than 6000 years, but many deny that because their faith contradicts it.

Originally posted by PsychoPawn
The question is, if you see physical evidence that contradicts the bible, what do you believe? The bible or your lying eyes?

There is an abundance of physical evidence that the world is far older than 6000 years, but many deny that because their faith contradicts it.

I see your point. One should not disregard contrary evidence.

But regarding Scottishinnz's post, his charge seemed to be that the Bible's claims should be either scientifically verifiable or rejected. The problem is, science assumes that if any phenomenon has any explanation at all, that it must have a scientific explanation; that is, it must be explainable according to the laws of nature. But Christianity presupposes that there are miracles in which natural laws are violated, therefore science must declare that Christianity is false from the get-go. If a person completely depends upon science to determine what is true or not, then that person's presuppositions already rule out the possibility of God existing or miracles occurring. As it has been pointed out already, such a position is illogical.

In light of this, my question is, was science ever intended to be a substitute for religion?

Originally posted by Jorge Borges
Francis Bacon, a Christian, established the scientific process. He said, "A little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion." Was science ever meant to be a substitute for religion?

Whether Bacon was a Christian or not is frightfully irrelevant.

My point remains that the Christian religion has invented itself a position where no argument whatsoever can ever be used to prove it false. At that point, there is no intellectual argument for religion, because there can be no true debate - it is an assertion, nothing more.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Whether Bacon was a Christian or not is frightfully irrelevant.

My point remains that the Christian religion has invented itself a position where no argument whatsoever can ever be used to prove it false. At that point, there is no intellectual argument for religion, because there can be no true debate - it is an assertion, nothing more.

Perhaps Christians are Christianity's worst enemy in that respect. If the goal is to prove it true (on the Christian side), then what are we to make of "mystery." In my opinion, when this is lost, you've sold out.

For those who want to know more about how science and religion relate to eachother, there is the Encyclical "Fides et Ratio".

ENCYCLICAL LETTER
FIDES ET RATIO

ON THE RELATIONSHIP
BETWEEN FAITH AND REASON


INTRODUCTION

“KNOW YOURSELF”

1. In both East and West, we may trace a journey which has led humanity down the centuries to meet and engage truth more and more deeply. It is a journey which has unfolded—as it must—within the horizon of personal self-consciousness: the more human beings know reality and the world, the more they know themselves in their uniqueness, with the question of the meaning of things and of their very existence becoming ever more pressing. This is why all that is the object of our knowledge becomes a part of our life. The admonition Know yourself was carved on the temple portal at Delphi, as testimony to a basic truth to be adopted as a minimal norm by those who seek to set themselves apart from the rest of creation as “human beings”, that is as those who “know themselves”.


http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

===========================

My point remains that the Christian religion has invented itself a position where no argument whatsoever can ever be used to prove it false. At that point, there is no intellectual argument for religion, because there can be no true debate - it is an assertion, nothing more.

=================================

What God is concerned about is that His life be united with the life of men and women. What is a priority to God is that His Being merge, blend, mingle, and abide within and with the human life. That is like the grafting of one branch into a tree. God wants to "organically' graft life of the believer into His eternal life.


The mechanism and the means by which He has committed Himself to carrying out this operation, for His own reasons, is faith.

"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith ..."
(Eph. 3:17)

Too often our human priority is simply to master correct facts in a purely objective way. That is not God's priority. Correct facts as an end in themselves is not a priority to Him. That man possesses "right" information so that he has the "truth" in a mathematically certain way, is not a priority to God.

But that a living Person - Christ, Who is alive, could make His home within the innermost being of people, so that we and He live one united and blended life in "organic" union, is His priority.

"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith ..."


For His own reasons and by His own ultimate authority He has chosen the mechanism of faith to be the means by which He carries out this dispensing of one Living Being into another.

Perhaps, because it leaves us with nothing to boast about, He has chosen the way of faith.

I am not sure why He has chosen faith as the sole mechanism by which God imparts God Himself in Christ as the Spirit, into man's life.

Originally posted by kirksey957
Perhaps Christians are Christianity's worst enemy in that respect. If the goal is to prove it true (on the Christian side), then what are we to make of "mystery." In my opinion, when this is lost, you've sold out.

Precisely.

Every answer is "Goddunnit" irrespective of any evidence. How can anyone suggest that this could be any kind of intellectual endeavour - it is not! It is excuse making at its most extreme.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===========================

My point remains that the Christian religion has invented itself a position where no argument whatsoever can ever be used to prove it false. At that point, there is no intellectual argument for religion, because there can be no true debate - it is an assertion, nothing more.

=================================

Wh ...[text shortened]... chanism by which God imparts God Himself in Christ as the Spirit, into man's life.[/b]

This doesn't even address my point, let alone seek to answer it.

You may as well have written a page of gobbledegook.

I know it had little to do with your point.

Just an excuse to post something in the discussion.

You're being used.

Originally posted by jaywill
I know it had little to do with your point.

Just an excuse to post something in the discussion.

You're being used.

Didn't your mother ever tell you, if you've got nothing worth saying be quiet?

=======================

Didn't your mother ever tell you, if you've got nothing worth saying be quiet?

===========================

It was worth saying. Yours just happened to be the post that it followed, for someone else to read it.

Speaking of mother's advice, more often than not, I find that hard core evolutionists are also athiests and don't honor their parents very much.