1. Standard memberDasa
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    02 Nov '10 15:44
  2. Standard memberAgerg
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    02 Nov '10 15:552 edits
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    An old man wearing nought but a grey overcoat on an overcast day trying to smoke a wet cigarette that hasn't even been lit yet standing amidst the ashen remains of a burnt out forest??? Bit of a rubbish solution to most things if you ask me.

    I thought the Christian solution was Jesus! Reveal Hidden Content
    not that I in anyway think his supposed sacrifice was a good solution
    😕
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    02 Nov '10 16:25
    Originally posted by Agerg
    An old man wearing nought but a grey overcoat on an overcast day trying to smoke a wet cigarette that hasn't even been lit yet standing amidst the ashen remains of a burnt out forest??? Bit of a rubbish solution to most things if you ask me.

    I thought the Christian solution was Jesus! [hidden]not that I in anyway think his supposed sacrifice was a good solution[/hidden] 😕
    it was the only solution!
  4. Standard memberAgerg
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    02 Nov '10 16:281 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    it was the only solution!
    Assuming your premise true (for argument sake) It was a messy, neanderthal, and completely unwarranted solution to a problem of his own making.
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    02 Nov '10 16:371 edit
    Originally posted by Agerg
    Assuming your premise true (for argument sake) It was a messy, neanderthal, and completely unwarranted solution to a problem of his own making.
    it was a master-stroke of pure genius, with one propitiating sacrifice he undone all that had transpired in the past, there were no more excuses, no more fences to climb over, once and for all time any person could exercise their conscience and come before God on the basis of that sacrifice. Had God foreseen it, yes indeed, for he created an environment conducive to the reception of the promised seed, being outside the rigours of time, a perfect plan, brought to fruition by a perfect being!
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    02 Nov '10 16:47
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    That was actually quite witty coming from you.
  7. Standard memberAgerg
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    02 Nov '10 16:553 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    it was a master-stroke of pure genius, with one propitiating sacrifice he undone all that had transpired in the past, there were no more excuses, no more fences to climb over, once and for all time any person could exercise their conscience and come before God on the basis of that sacrifice. Had God foreseen it, yes indeed, for he created an environ ...[text shortened]... seed, being outside the rigours of time, a perfect plan, brought to fruition by a perfect being!
    I'll ever so slightly rephrase my opening gambit from another thread I started a few days ago:


    If ASDA (Walmart) somehow managed to drive out of business every grocery vendor in the UK, then decided to set the price of a loaf of 'Smartprice' bread at 30% of the average weekly earnings, throwing in, as a free gift, a 1% off voucher and glossy pamphlet about how they're "always saving me money", I wouldn't be grateful for their "gift".

    Similarly if some God decides that the price of doing things it doesn't like is death and eternal torture and throws in, as a sweetener, some bloke (allegedly it's son) to be later crucified (paying off some of the 'death'😉 I wouldn't be grateful for it's gift


    Before you tell me God is 'just' and the price he set was necessary, please define your terms...in particular, what would you mean by "just"? Whatever god decrees is just???
    As an example there were probably a great number of nazis that thought Hitler's method of dealing with Jews was just; most people who weren't nazis on the otherhand would have thought differently. Similarly, just because your god is alleged to be creator of the universe does not warrant any claims that it's actions are good or fair by any metric that is meaningful with the colloquial definition of "just". Infact "just" when applied to god means, as far as I can ascertain, 'because God says so"
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    02 Nov '10 17:17
    Originally posted by vishvahetu
    Is this kind of like Germany's final solution?

    Ok then, haul us away and feed us to the lions. It's only a matter of time. :'(
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    02 Nov '10 18:211 edit
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I'll ever so slightly rephrase my opening gambit from another thread I started a few days ago:


    If ASDA (Walmart) somehow managed to drive out of business every grocery vendor in the UK, then decided to set the price of a loaf of 'Smartprice' bread at 30% of the average weekly earnings, throwing in, as a free gift, a 1% off voucher and glossy pamphlet a plied to god means, as far as I can ascertain, 'because God says so"
    not only is God Just, he is more than Just, for his justice can be tempered with other qualities as well, like mercy for example, thus he is able to look beyond the letter of the law and apply its principles. He always adheres to his own standards of justice, thus the sacrifice that you referred to is a perfect example, for God had decreed that since Adam had disobeyed him and sought moral independence selling mankind into sin and death in the process he should suffer the consequences of his action, however, God found a way to satisfy his own standards of justice through the sacrifice of the Christ which perfectly covered all aspects of what was originally forfeited by Adam. Now humans could apply the merits of the sacrifice, Gods own standards of justice were met and the breach was healed.
  10. Standard memberAgerg
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    02 Nov '10 18:353 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    not only is God Just, he is more than Just, for his justice can be tempered with other qualities as well, like mercy for example, thus he is able to look beyond the letter of the law and apply its principles. He always adheres to his own standards of justice, thus the sacrifice that you referred to is a perfect example, for God had decreed that since ...[text shortened]... y the merits of the sacrifice, Gods own standards of justice were met and the breach was healed.
    I don't think you understood me, prefering instead to give me some hollow sermon on how great your god is.

    To spell out my point in a different way; an evil god that behaving as an evil god should (so as to not conflict with it's character) will be no less "just" than a nice god behaving as nice gods should given your usage of "just". You might as well rename "just" as "fd;gjhjljnslfsdgf" for all the good it does us in conversation.

    Again "cos god sez so" does not compel me to see it's ways as anything worthy of admiration...in the same vein, "cos Hitler sez so" does not compel me to think torturing and killing Jews is a good thing.
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    02 Nov '10 18:421 edit
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I don't think you understood me, prefering instead to give me some hollow sermon on how great your god is.

    To spell out my point in a different way; an evil god that behaving as an evil god should (so as to not conflict with it's character) will be no less "just" than a nice god behaving as nice gods should given your usage of "just". You might as well rename "just" as "fd;gjhjljnslfsdgf" for all the good it does us in conversation.
    it was not a sermon but a pertinent explanation of why the sacrifice was not only justified, but a master stroke, also you cannot simply, even for arguments sake, try to invoke a semantic argument with terms like just and evil, for the actions of a sacrifice speak for themselves, in that it is the evident demonstration of the sacrifice which dictates whether it was justified or not, we infact, see this in chess all the time, do we not?
  12. Standard memberAgerg
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    02 Nov '10 18:49
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    it was not a sermon but a pertinent explanation of why the sacrifice was not only justified, but a master stroke, also you cannot simply, even for arguments sake, try to invoke a semantic argument with terms like just and evil, for the actions of a sacrifice speak for themselves, in that it is the evident demonstration of the sacrifice which dictates whether it was justified or not, we infact, see this in chess all the time, do we not?
    I see...so if some mother requires that her son Jimmy offer it's little brother as sacrifice to appease her displeasure at having to change nappies and fails to do this; that same mother having another son and successfully arranging for it to be killed would be absolutely fantastic then...a master stroke of pure genious at wiping the slate clean for Jimmy!

    Your concept of god is a monster.
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    02 Nov '10 19:024 edits
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I see...so if some mother requires that her son Jimmy offer it's little brother as sacrifice to appease her displeasure at having to change nappies and fails to do this; that same mother having another son and successfully arranging for it to be killed would be absolutely fantastic then...a master stroke of pure genious at wiping the slate clean for Jimmy!

    Your concept of god is a monster.
    i prefer to think it in terms of a train heading for a precipice and a willing person allows even their own son to sacrifice themselves so that a multitude might be saved, that is the extent of Gods love, he held nothing back, not even his own son, so that others might be saved from permanent death. It is without doubt the single greatest act of love ever, and to trample upon it as if it was inconsequential my atheist friend, is the greatest folly. To term it monstrous is to entirely miss its point.

    i do not even pretend to understand the extent of its love, i could not do it, nor would i allow my own son to do it, but i am human and not a God, my time is finite and my wisdom like a broken cup, but God is God and his love superlative!
  14. Standard memberAgerg
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    02 Nov '10 19:091 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    i prefer to think it in terms of a train heading for a precipice and a willing person allows even their own son to sacrifice themselves so that a multitude might be saved, that is the extent of Gods love, he held nothing back, not even his own son, so that others might be saved from permanent death. It is without doubt the single greatest act of love ...[text shortened]... al my atheist friend, is the greatest folly. To term it monstrous is to entirely miss its point.
    But you haven't really shown how your god is anymore virtuous than the mother who arranges for one of it's children to be killed in my last response. Oh and before you say "ah well that mother didn't create the universe" I can easily substitute 'evil god' for mother and anything I choose as *thing it doesn't like* and payment...how about gouging 97 babies' eyes out for some bloke called Bob liking fish and chips?

    In short you are doing nothing to convince me that it was in anyway a good act. I say it was grotesque
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    02 Nov '10 19:11
    Originally posted by Agerg
    But you haven't really shown how your god is anymore virtuous than the mother who arranges for one of it's children to be killed in my last response. Oh and before you say "ah well that mother didn't create the universe" I can easily substitute 'evil god' for mother and anything I like as payment...how about gouging 97 babies' eyes out?

    In short you are doing nothing to convince me that it was in anyway a good act. I say it was grotesque
    its very simple my friend, as i tried to state before, the virtue or other of the sacrifice is in its demonstration, its reality if you like, what it actually accomplishes, to save millions of lives i think is justification enough, don't you?
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