Christian solution

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
its very simple my friend, as i tried to state before, the virtue or other of the sacrifice is in its demonstration, its reality if you like, what it actually accomplishes, to save millions of lives i think is justification enough, don't you?

Well apparantly your god decides who lives and who dies (in both the real and spiritual sense) and so doing dirty deed X so it doesn't have to do dirty deed Y is a poor defense.
You might as well argue that me arranging for some bloke to be burned at the stake so I don't go on a wild bombing spree is awesome because so many lives would be saved.

Originally posted by Agerg
Well apparantly your god decides who lives and who dies (in both the real and spiritual sense) and so doing dirty deed X so it doesn't have to do dirty deed Y is a poor defense.
You might as well argue that me arranging for some bloke to be burned at the stake so I don't go on a wild bombing spree is awesome because so many lives would be saved.

not quite, for people decide for themselves, the loving act has been made, as Paul states, 'God loved us first', if we do not reciprocate the love, well the onus falls upon whom? us or God? if you cannot appeal to someone on the basis of love, what else is left?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
not quite, for people decide for themselves, the loving act has been made, as Paul states, 'God loved us first', if we do not reciprocate the love, well the onus falls upon whom? us or God?

k, so we're both singing from the same hymn sheet (as it were)...why don't you clear this one up then (slow and detailed)...I'll return to my argument afterwards.

What happens if I don't accept Jesus (or however you wish to phrase it)?

Originally posted by Agerg
k, so we're both singing from the same hymn sheet (as it were)...why don't you clear this one up then (slow and detailed)...I'll return to my argument afterwards.

What happens if I don't accept Jesus (or however you wish to phrase it)?

nothing happens, you live your life and you die, the end.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
nothing happens, you live your life and you die, the end.

I see...so then your god's 'magnificent' sacrifice can be summarized as follows:

1) It decides doing X,Y,Z,... are things it doesn't like humans doing (sins)
2) The payment for sins X,Y,Z,... is eternal death
3) There exists a superior state of existence for us your God can make possible, and is the unique entity that can do this. (It has monopoly on who doesn't just die)
4) It decides, having arbitrarliy set the price stated in (2), to send it's son to pay the price *it* levied.
5) We must think this was maximally fantastic!???

Meh! 😞

How about this one

1) I decide doing X,Y,Z,... are things I don't like other humans doing (agerg_sins)
2) The payment for agerg_sins X,Y,Z,... is not turning off all the ticking time bombs my mate Jim set
3) There exists a superior state of existence for other humans I can make possible, and I'm the unique human that can do this. (Only I know where the bombs are hidden...Jim died)
4) I decide, having arbitrarliy set the price stated in (2), to send my dog "whipper" (I don't have a son) to pay the price *I* levied (I send it to be crushed to death in an explosion-it was slow and painful).
5) You must all think this was maximally fantastic

Originally posted by Agerg
I see...so then your god's 'magnificent' sacrifice can be summarized as follows:

1) It decides doing X,Y,Z,... are things it doesn't like humans doing (sins)
2) The payment for sins X,Y,Z,... is eternal death
3) There exists a superior state of existence your God can make possible, and is the unique entity that can do this.
4) It decides, having arbitrar to pay the price *it* levied.
5) We must think this was maximally fantastic!???

Meh! 😞

ummm i don't really understand what you are saying Agers but i shall try to answer your question as honestly and to the best of my ability, as i can,

1.yes God has stated that there are practices that he does not want humans to engage in, these may be termed sins. (Sin simply means a failure to adhere to Gods standards of perfection, thus it is imperfection, we sadly have inherited this sinful tendency from Adam and also suffer death)

2.Yes the payment for sin is death (God must after all satisfy his own justice, for if it were not so, he would be termed a liar, and that could never be, thus when he stated to Adam, 'you will positively die', that is what he meant, the position demanded justice and it was given)

3.Yes there exists a superior state of existence, one free from sin and thus free from death. Have not come across any other entity which promises this.

4.There was nothing arbitrary about it, justice demanded that a perfect life had been fortified in Adam, and a perfect life was needed to make reparation. Christ was the only person who could have met the demands of justice.

5.This is a fact of life, whether you find it fantastic or awesome depends upon ones disposition towards it.

🙂

Originally posted by Agerg
How about this one

1) I decide doing X,Y,Z,... are things I don't like other humans doing (agerg_sins)
2) The payment for agerg_sins X,Y,Z,... is not turning off all the ticking time bombs my mate Jim set
3) There exists a superior state of existence for other humans I can make possible, and I'm the unique human that can do this. (Only I know where the bo ...[text shortened]... an explosion-it was slow and painful).
5) You must all think this was maximally fantastic

once was quite enough thank you vewy vewy much!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
once was quite enough thank you vewy vewy much!

I have always found it interesting how Christians are so sure that the logic in Christianity is so simple and straight forward that anyone can see it, but when asked to explain it they usually fail to communicate the point. There are a number of core claims in various forms of Christianity that I have never been able to understand, yet Christians often take them as obvious or givens. When I ask for an explanation there is either silence, or an attempt to explain that I never quite seem to grasp.
Why is this?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
ummm i don't really understand what you are saying Agers but i shall try to answer your question as honestly and to the best of my ability, as i can,

1.yes God has stated that there are practices that he does not want humans to engage in, these may be termed sins. (Sin simply means a failure to adhere to Gods standards of perfection, thus it is ...[text shortened]... ife, whether you find it fantastic or awesome depends upon ones disposition towards it.

🙂

Well 'it's own justice' as you say in (2) (and imply in 1 - eating naughty apples is terrible!???) is a grotesque feature of your god...Similarly, 'my own justice' letting people get blown to smithereens is grotesque. It's failure to amend this in (4), indeed it's method of satisfying (2) is even more grotesque.

We could argue this all year I suppose.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I have always found it interesting how Christians are so sure that the logic in Christianity is so simple and straight forward that anyone can see it, but when asked to explain it they usually fail to communicate the point. There are a number of core claims in various forms of Christianity that I have never been able to understand, yet Christians often ta ...[text shortened]... here is either silence, or an attempt to explain that I never quite seem to grasp.
Why is this?

perhaps you have failed to ask the right person, for i also have met lots of not only Christians, but other religious persons as well who cannot explain why they profess a certain belief, what of it? My own thoughts on the matter is that their faith is not based on reason and so when they are asked to explain the reasons of why the profess such and such a belief, they cannot do so. If you cannot grasp what they are saying, ask them to illustrate it.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
perhaps you have failed to ask the right person, for i also have met lots of not only Christians, but other religious persons as well who cannot explain why they profess a certain belief, what of it? My own thoughts on the matter is that their faith is not based on reason and so when they are asked to explain the reasons of why the profess such and ...[text shortened]... belief, they cannot do so. If you cannot grasp what they are saying, ask them to illustrate it.

That's the property of a religious belief: It just cannot be explained, only transferred to those who need a religion.

What one christian explains explain another christian differently. Like christianity is composed by several different religions. Christians don't even agree to the core of christianity.

Originally posted by Agerg
Well 'it's own justice' as you say in (2) (and imply in 1 - eating naughty apples is terrible!???) is a grotesque feature of your god...Similarly, 'my own justice' letting people get blown to smithereens is grotesque. It's failure to amend this in (4), indeed it's method of satisfying (2) is even more grotesque.

We could argue this all year I suppose.

no, don't be silly, the apple was a mere symbol, in reality it was an act of moral independence, 'we do not need God', 'we are better off without him', therefore once again, to satisfy the demands of justice, God stated, ok, we shall see, and here we find ourselves, in the 21 century on the brink of economic, moral and environmental disaster! i think enough time has lapsed to prove the point, don't you 🙂

Originally posted by FabianFnas
That's the property of a religious belief: It just cannot be explained, only transferred to those who need a religion.

What one christian explains explain another christian differently. Like christianity is composed by several different religions. Christians don't even agree to the core of christianity.

If it is based on reason, it can be explained, can it not?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
If it is based on reason, it can be explained, can it not?

If it is explained in different ways, every one excluding one another, no, then it cannot be explained.

When all christian agrees to one another, then I look into it.