Originally posted by FMF
[b]I know this is anathema to everything you stand for (mostly your own pride), but I'm not talking "issue" with it because it's not reality. If they want to believe it, it doesn't affect me. Apparently it affects you merely because it disagrees with you, and unlike me, you seem to think this is among the greatest slights people can offer you.

If ...[text shortened]... oesn't affect" you - why do you take issue with robbie carrobie's version if the Christian god?[/b]

I find it beyond irritating that I have to state my beliefs again and again and again for the ones who can't be bothered to read it the first time (or the second, etc.) How many times have you asked a similar question? How many times must I answer it before you extend to me the courtesy of remembering what I said?

The JW "version" of salvation is flawed, and they do many things according to their dogma which endangers not only their salvation but that of anyone associated with their church.

Standard mainstream Christian belief (which, like it or not, is what is espoused by these "burning in hell for eternity" people) is not going to prevent anyone from salvation. One can accept a ride in a car without fully understanding how the car works. One's misunderstanding about the details of what happens at Judgement can be dismissed as "not understanding a state which no person has ever come back from to tell us about" and so no one can be 100% confident that they have the truth of this one detail. It's still certainly not going to keep anyone from salvation.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I find it beyond irritating that I have to state my beliefs again and again and again for the ones who can't be bothered to read it the first time (or the second, etc.) How many times have you asked a similar question? How many times must I answer it before you extend to me the courtesy of remembering what I said?

The JW "version" of salvation is flawe ...[text shortened]... ave the truth of this one detail. It's still certainly not going to keep anyone from salvation.

If it isn't reality, and it doesn’t affect you, and you say you're never going to change anyone's mind, what is the point of taking issue with the JWs? And if sonship's belief about torture isn't reality, and it doesn’t affect anyone, and you say divegeester's never going to change anyone's mind, what is the point of criticizing him for taking issue with sonship?

Originally posted by Suzianne

One's misunderstanding about the details of what happens at Judgement can be dismissed as "not understanding a state which no person has ever come back from to tell us about" and so no one can be 100% confident that they have the truth of this one detail. It's still certainly not going to keep anyone from salvation.

I am not concerned with the mechanics of how you think you end up being immortal. I am more interested in how the very nature of sonship's god is utterly different from the god you and divegeester worship. Utterly different in a fundamental way.

Originally posted by FMF
Do you believe the torturer god that sonship describes and explains is significantly different from the version of the (supposedly) same god you and divegeester perceive?

"significantly" different?

No.

But apparently, my definition of "significantly" and your definition of "significantly" are even more different. But then I knew that, even if you didn't. (But you probably did. You never ask a question that you don't think you have the answer to before you ask it, leaving one to wonder "So why do you ask it anyways?" Simple, to make a point that you think will help others decide that you are the one with the better argument. Don't say I have never learned anything from being your target for years.)

And I'm not going to ask you again. Drop the snide "supposedly" and be civil, for once.

Originally posted by FMF
[b]One's misunderstanding about the details of what happens at Judgement can be dismissed as "not understanding a state which no person has ever come back from to tell us about" and so no one can be 100% confident that they have the truth of this one detail. It's still certainly not going to keep anyone from salvation.

I am not concerned with the mechani ...[text shortened]... erly different from the god you and divegeester worship. Utterly different in a fundamental way.[/b]

Stop twisting the words of people who post here.

The God of Abraham is what He is. The differences amount to differences in perception of humans, who are not God. His God and my God are NOT "fundamentally" or "significantly" different, and certainly not "utterly" different. Read what I posted. If you cannot read and assimilate what I wrote in your headlong rush to "call me out" for some standard of behavior or belief you seemingly find NOT "utterly", "fundamentally" or even "significantly" different from some kind of depravity which exists only in your own head, then we have nothing more to talk about. I'm not surprised you find civility too tough to handle. You never could.

If you're not "concerned" with my answer then forget it.

You asked a question. I answered it. You don't like the answer? Too bad.

Since you obviously cannot prevent yourself from showing your contempt for Christians with seemingly every breath you take, then I'm done here. I know you're not, so go ahead and pollute the thread with more nonsense before giving up, like usual.

Originally posted by Suzianne
"significantly" different?

No.

But apparently, my definition of "significantly" and your definition of "significantly" are even more different. But then I knew that, even if you didn't. (But you probably did. You never ask a question that you don't think you have the answer to before you ask it, leaving one to wonder "So why do you ask it anyways?" ...[text shortened]... rs.)

And I'm not going to ask you again. Drop the snide "supposedly" and be civil, for once.

"Supposedly" is the apt word. It isn't snide or uncivil at all.

So you don’t find sonship's attribution of torture to what is supposed to be the same god as you worship to be a "significant" difference in perception and definition?

Originally posted by Suzianne
If you're not "concerned" with my answer then forget it.

I said I am specufucally not concerned in this instance with your claims about how you become immortal. What my question is concerned with is the very nature of your god and how it is different from the very nature of sonship's god.

Originally posted by Suzianne
As I've said for years, the ONLY reason you get your panties in a twist about it is that they disagree with you, and you seem to think that makes them immeasurably evil..

This is a debate forum Suzianne, you have topics you like to discuss and other have topics they like to discuss. I like to debate the topic of my God allegedly torturing people in fire for eternity because they disagree with him. Not because the poster writing it disagrees with me. I think this teaching brings the god that I believe in and therefore by association my own beliefs and moral compass, also into question.

You are saying you don't tackle sonship (who is by far the strongest promoter of this teaching that I've ever met) on this matter simply because he is wrong. Frankly that is total bollocks Suzianne; you tackle the JWs on minor points of doctrine vehemently and all the time, and clearly you think they are also wrong...

No, it is obvious why you don't tackle sonship on him teaching eternal spiritual holocaust...it is because he's your buddy. You continue to be one of the most unprincipled Christian posters here, dropping all your arguments if the person is on your buddy list. It's pathetic to be honest.

Originally posted by Suzianne
The JW "version" of salvation is flawed...

But if I lever the argument you used against me just now, surely if the JW postion on this is wrong, like sonship's belief in eternal suffering is wrong, then why debate it at all? Surely you are just arguing with them because they dissageee with YOU?

Right? 😉

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Do you think if divegeester was jet washed with Holy water it would make any difference?

It seems not even soap water would clean his mouth. 😉

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
It seems not even soap water would clean his mouth. 😉

Indeed. Its the consequence of his Calvinistic 'once saved always saved doctrine'. It suppresses the natural exercise of conscience and leads to a kind of feeling of impunity in that no matter what he does or says, he will ultimately be forgiven. This is the reason that he feels no remorse for his foul mouthed rants and instead seeks to justify them.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Yes, because you ignore the record with near impunity every single time. You make stuff up in your stampede to "prove someone wrong". Your name calling is in the same league as FMF's, perhaps you learned it from him, it's definitely gotten worse since you've been hanging out together. For your information, an insult like "child of Satan" has so much hype ...[text shortened]... chool teachers make note of this?

All because they disagree with you. What's wrong with you?

wow DiveWendy taken apart piece by piece

Originally posted by divegeester
Oh dear, once again burying your nasty beliefs in obfuscation, like a tick in a sheeps ass.

Here's the question:
[b]Do you believe in orchestrated eternal suffering for unbelievers?

It's a simple question jovishw, and one not avoided by you either believing or believing in predestination.[/b]

Hey! Obfuscation is my word. I'm pretty sure I was the first to use it around here. I own it, so please keep your fingers off those keys. 😉

"Do you believe in orchestrated eternal suffering for unbelievers?"

I believe what God says about it. At the very least it means eternal separation from God in death.

But we've had this discussion before, and I referenced the applicable bible verses that talk about that, but you didn't reply to those verses. Are you ready to go there now?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Do you think if divegeester was jet washed with Holy water it would make any difference?

I think high pressure steam cleaning with holy water might do the trick. 😉

Originally posted by josephw
Hey! Obfuscation is my word. I'm pretty sure I was the first to use it around here. I own it, so please keep your fingers off those keys. 😉

[b]"Do you believe in orchestrated eternal suffering for unbelievers?"

I believe what God says about it. At the very least it means eternal separation from God in death.

But we've had this discussion befor ...[text shortened]... erses that talk about that, but you didn't reply to those verses. Are you ready to go there now?[/b]

Is that a yes or a no jovisw?