Does anyone who reads or posts in this forum find room for the concept of collective salvation?
Scripture seems to be unambiguous about salvation. God saves individuals through the sacrifice of Christ.
But is it really unambiguous? Are there other ways to interpret the writings? Is there any rational argument for collective salvation in the 21st century?
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Originally posted by arbeiderYes. Collective salvation IS salvation into the eternal purpose of God.
Does anyone who reads or posts in this forum find room for the concept of collective salvation?
Scripture seems to be unambiguous about salvation. God saves individuals through the sacrifice of Christ.
But is it really unambiguous? Are there other ways to interpret the writings? Is there any rational argument for collective salvation in the 21st century?
Ephesians says Christ died for a collective - the church.
" ... Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her that He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word." (Eph. 5:26)
Yes indeed, my personal salvation if an integral part of God's corporate salvation of a collective entity.
That is a corporate entity which fulfills His eternal purpose.
Originally posted by arbeiderAfter this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes and there were palm branches in their hands And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.” - Revelation 7
Does anyone who reads or posts in this forum find room for the concept of collective salvation?
Scripture seems to be unambiguous about salvation. God saves individuals through the sacrifice of Christ.
But is it really unambiguous? Are there other ways to interpret the writings? Is there any rational argument for collective salvation in the 21st century?
Originally posted by arbeiderDo you think that God can be fooled by an evil person piggybacking, on the righteous or on some organisation? Have a read of this:
Does anyone who reads or posts in this forum find room for the concept of collective salvation?
Scripture seems to be unambiguous about salvation. God saves individuals through the sacrifice of Christ.
But is it really unambiguous? Are there other ways to interpret the writings? Is there any rational argument for collective salvation in the 21st century?
For every man shall bear his own burden. Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. (Galatians 6:5-8 KJV)
Everlasting life is not for the those who live in the flesh, regardless of the church to which they belong.
Originally posted by arbeiderI notice that you seem to have nothing of substance to support your statements. Again here is the Bible on what you are calling 'one':
Yes that is the question I was asking myself this morning.
Collective salvation makes sense to me. There is something serious in the idea that we are one. My view is that to separate misinterprets something fundamental about life.
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
(1 Corinthians 3:8-17 KJV)
Members of the Church are one, of course. But in the end, those that defile themselves are destroyed.
-Removed-If you believe in salvation (redemption?) can it be achieved individually or does mankind share a responsibility to collectively ensure each of us is redeemed.
Prisons and the management of economic resources look very different in a world that believes in collective salvation.
Yes I know it is a bit obtuse. It was just something I was thinking about earlier and thought I would post and see what others thought.
Originally posted by Rajk999I do not think God can be fooled.
Do you think that God can be fooled by an evil person piggybacking, on the righteous or on some organisation? Have a read of this:
[i]For every man shall bear his own burden. Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. F ...[text shortened]... life is not for the those who live in the flesh, regardless of the church to which they belong.
Originally posted by Rajk999I have nothing of substance to support my statements. You say that like it is a bad thing.
I notice that you seem to have nothing of substance to support your statements. Again here is the Bible on what you are calling 'one':
[i]Now [b]he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. A ...[text shortened]... rs of the Church are one, of course. But in the end, those that defile themselves are destroyed.[/b]
Originally posted by arbeider
[b]Yes that is the question I was asking myself this morning.
Collective salvation makes sense to me. There is something serious in the idea that we are one. My view is that to separate misinterprets something fundamental about life.
When we examine Christ's mighty prayer before His redemptive death, in John 17, we see a collective salvation. The "they" who are to be saved are built together into a oneness which likened to the very Triune God Himself.
Notice the relationship between the oneness the collective entity of the saved with the oneness of the Father and the Son:
"And I do not ask concerning these only, but concerning those also who believe into Me through their word. (v.20)
That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me. (v.21)
And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one. (v.22)
I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (v.23)
Notice that in this perfecting process the oneness of the Trinity becomes the uniting and building power of the oneness of the corporate body of the saved.
" ... that they may be one, even as We are one."
This is not only an eternal life infinite in duration. This is an eternal life, in quality as unlimited as God Himself. Are being reconciled to God consummates also in a total reconciliation between one another in an indestructible oneness.
Since the first couple of commandments is that we love God with our whole being and love one another as we love ourselves, it makes sense that complete salvation is both vertical towards God and horizontal towards one another in eternal love.