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Rajk999

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09 Jun '11 16:31

Zahlanzi
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10 Jun '11 09:15
Originally posted by Rajk999
Jaywill it seems, has written [more or less] in support of RJHinds stance re the poor.
Are you saying that Jaywill is not a Christian ?
jaywill is contradicting himself (he does that often). he says it is true that he only needs to believe in christ and be saved but then he goes on saying he needs to live like christ?

this is a classic case of choosing one passage from the bible and runing with it into the ground, pass the mohorovicic discontinuity and head towards the molten core of the planet. forgetting that there are other passages like "faith without works is meaningless"(i think you posted them). and even if there were no such passages, christianity is supposed to be a religion of love, how can someone calling himself christian be so callous as to say "i don't need to improve the lives of others like christ did, i only need to believe in him that he will save me regardless of my actions"
Rajk999
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10 Jun '11 09:49
Originally posted by Zahlanzi
jaywill is contradicting himself (he does that often). he says it is true that he only needs to believe in christ and be saved but then he goes on saying he needs to live like christ?

this is a classic case of choosing one passage from the bible and runing with it into the ground, pass the mohorovicic discontinuity and head towards the molten core of th ...[text shortened]... ke christ did, i only need to believe in him that he will save me regardless of my actions"
You hit the nail on the head and this ..

"i don't need to improve the lives of others like christ did, i only need to believe in him that he will save me regardless of my actions" ,,

philisophy is exactly what is being taught in churches. Hence the reason why I said that you will be surprised how many Christians think like RJHinds.

Jaywill, RJHinds, Kelly Jay, Suzainne, JosephW and there are many more who post here who dont believe that good works count.
Agerg
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10 Jun '11 09:544 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
You hit the nail on the head and this ..

"i don't need to improve the lives of others like christ did, i only need to believe in him that he will save me regardless of my actions" ,,

philisophy is exactly what is being taught in churches. Hence the reason why I said that you will be surprised how many Christians think like RJHinds.

Jaywill, R ...[text shortened]... zainne, JosephW and there are many more who post here who dont believe that good works count.
All examples of the sort of True Christian™s God© loves; they are all bound for a magic wonderland in the sky (heaven® ) for chitting on their peers but keeping the faith still high.

we God HATING atheists have a lot to learn about their fine morality - indeed they probably walk about with *actual* halos above their heads and find *real* pots of gold at the end of a fecking rainbow.
jaywill
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10 Jun '11 12:001 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999
Jaywill it seems, has written [more or less] in support of RJHinds stance re the poor.
Are you saying that Jaywill is not a Christian ?
Zahlanzi
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10 Jun '11 12:07
Originally posted by Rajk999
You hit the nail on the head and this ..

"i don't need to improve the lives of others like christ did, i only need to believe in him that he will save me regardless of my actions" ,,

philisophy is exactly what is being taught in churches. Hence the reason why I said that you will be surprised how many Christians think like RJHinds.

Jaywill, R ...[text shortened]... zainne, JosephW and there are many more who post here who dont believe that good works count.
i don't believe any sane person would believe that. many fundies are thought about the impressive healing power of believing in jesus. it is important, yes, but without followup it means nothing. otherwise all hitler had to do was feel remorse about what he did and go to heaven while leaving mahatma ghandi or the arabs who revolutionized medicine when europe was in the dark ages to roast in hell for all eternity.

to believe an atheist doctor is less worthy to go to heaven than a repentant (even sincere) serial child rapist shows remarcable lack of intelligence and sanity. such a god would be as sadistic as the baal requiring child sacrifices or the aztec gods.
jaywill
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10 Jun '11 12:26
Originally posted by Zahlanzi
jaywill is contradicting himself (he does that often). he says it is true that he only needs to believe in christ and be saved but then he goes on saying he needs to live like christ?

this is a classic case of choosing one passage from the bible and runing with it into the ground, pass the mohorovicic discontinuity and head towards the molten core of th ...[text shortened]... ke christ did, i only need to believe in him that he will save me regardless of my actions"
=====================================
jaywill is contradicting himself (he does that often). he says it is true that he only needs to believe in christ and be saved but then he goes on saying he needs to live like christ?
=================================

There is no contradition there.

You see it may meet my need to be saved from damnation. But God has a need, Once forgiven and saved in that regard God needs Christ to fill my personality for His expression and the building up of His mystical body, the church.

So we have the word "saved" used in the New Testament in regard to being saved from the lake of fire. And we have "saved" in the New Testament to mean saved from expressing Adam and saved to expressing Jesus in one's daily life.

There is no contradictio. here.

=====================================
this is a classic case of choosing one passage from the bible and runing with it into the ground, pass the mohorovicic discontinuity and head towards the molten core of the planet. forgetting that there are other passages like "faith without works is meaningless"(i think you posted them). and even if there were no such passages, christianity is supposed to be a religion of love, how can someone calling himself christian be so callous as to say "i don't need to improve the lives of others like christ did, i only need to believe in him that he will save me regardless of my actions"
======================================

I do not forget that there are "other passages". I do not think that the Bible is always simple to understand nor give up easily when there are paradoxes to be studied.

As I read the whole New Testament I can say that a Christian can proclaim.

1.) I WAS saved.
2.) I am BEING saved.
3.) I WILL be saved.

All three aspects are biblical. And if it is too confusing for you that is too bad. You have to take the time to study the matter.

Man is a three part being - spirit and soul and body (1 Thess. 5:23)

And God's full salvation is applied to each part.

The human spirit is saved through regeneration. It only takes an instant.
The human soul is saved through transformation. That is a life long process.
The human body is saved through transfiguration which will occur at resurrection and/ or rapture.

I can say I was saved when I was born again.
Yet I am being saved daily as the Spirit transforms my soul.
And when I am resurrected or the Lord raptures me alive, I will be saved in my physical body too.

There was not contradiction in my post. I highlighted different applications of the word saved.

When James talks about faith without works is dead and how can a man be saved without works, he is not speaking of the salvation from eternal perdition. He is speaking of the salvation of transformation and sanctification in the soul, in the personality.

To be forgiven is surely a salvation. But God does not forgive sinners as an end in itself. It should be obvious that His plan is to conform the saved to the image of the Firtborn Son of God:

"Because those whom he foreknew, He also predestinated to be CONFORMED to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom 8:29)

James is speaking of the salvtion of CONFORMATION. And that is manifested in works. God is not happy that we just remain FORGIVEN but not transformed or not conformed or not sanctified.

So there is no contradiction but different applications of the word "saved" or "salvation" in the New Testament.

Here is another verse which nicely brings out God's full work upon His children:

Romans 5:10 - For if we, being enemies, were reconcled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled."

There are two stages there:

1. The former ENEMY of God WAS RECONCILED to God through the death of His Son. That is no doubt a salvation - to be RECONCILED to God.

2.) Having BEEN RECONCILED there is something "much more" that must take place and will. We will much more be SAVED in His life.

Christ has entered into the forgiven sinners who are now reconciled to a righteous God. There will now be MUCH MORE as SAVING in the sphere and realm of His indwelling life.

James' reference works stemming from faith is a discussion of the "much more" being saved in the realm of Christ's indwelling divine life.

James' references for the need of works is a discussion on being saved in His life. It is not a discussion on eternal redemption.
jaywill
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10 Jun '11 12:421 edit
Originally posted by Zahlanzi
jaywill is contradicting himself (he does that often). he says it is true that he only needs to believe in christ and be saved but then he goes on saying he needs to live like christ?

this is a classic case of choosing one passage from the bible and runing with it into the ground, pass the mohorovicic discontinuity and head towards the molten core of th ke christ did, i only need to believe in him that he will save me regardless of my actions"
Nonsense.

How many chapters does your book of Romans have ?
Mine has 16 chapters. Do you know why Paul wrote 16 chapters rather than just 4 ?

If Paul had only meant to show that Christian life was nothing more than Justification by Faith he could have stopped his writing of Romans around the end of chapter 4.

Once having been justified by faith there is considerable more which ai important to the church and the kingdom of God. So he goes on to chapters 5,6,7,8,9, and so on through to chapter 16.

There is nothing wrong about stressing chapter 4 when speaking on matters pertaining to that aspect of the Christian life. And there is nothing wrong with spekaing extensively on chapter 8, 12, or 14 when speaking respectively about those matters of the Christian life.
Rajk999
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10 Jun '11 13:26
Originally posted by jaywill
Nonsense.

How many chapters does your book of Romans have ?
Mine has 16 chapters. Do you know why Paul wrote 16 chapters rather than just 4 ?

If Paul had only meant to show that Christian life was nothing more than Justification by Faith he could have stopped his writing of Romans around the end of chapter 4.

Once having been justified by ...[text shortened]... ly on chapter 8, 12, or 14 when speaking respectively about those matters of the Christian life.
Thanks for that discourse Jaywill. It was informative.

So as long as your sprirt is regenerated in an instant, you cannot lose your salvation and your good works are not essential for salvation.

Hence the reason why you also believe in the 'once saved always saved principle'.
jaywill
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10 Jun '11 13:35
Originally posted by Rajk999
Thanks for that discourse Jaywill. It was informative.

So as long as your sprirt is regenerated in an instant, you cannot lose your salvation and your good works are not essential for salvation.

Hence the reason why you also believe in the 'once saved always saved principle'.
=================================
Thanks for that discourse Jaywill. It was informative.

So as long as your sprirt is regenerated in an instant, you cannot lose your salvation and your good works are not essential for salvation.

Hence the reason why you also believe in the 'once saved always saved principle'.
=====================================

I would put it this way. Once you are born you cannot be unborn.

I am born of my earthly father. At times were were not on great speaking terms. But I was still his son with his life in me.

Once a sinner is born again he cannot be unborn of God.
The eternal life is a gift and is eternally secure.
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10 Jun '11 13:552 edits
Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=================================
Thanks for that discourse Jaywill. It was informative.

So as long as your sprirt is regenerated in an instant, you cannot lose your salvation and your good works are not essential for salvation.

Hence the reason why you also believe in the 'once saved always saved principle'.
============================== ...[text shortened]... n again he cannot be unborn of God.
The eternal life is a gift and is eternally secure.[/b]
So the answer is YES, once saved always saved.
Now you well know that Christ stressed the importance of good works and He went so far as to state categorically that those who do not do good works will not get eternal life.
How do you reconcile your apparently conflicting theology with that of Christ?
Zahlanzi
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10 Jun '11 15:12
Originally posted by Rajk999
Thanks for that discourse Jaywill. It was informative.

So as long as your sprirt is regenerated in an instant, you cannot lose your salvation and your good works are not essential for salvation.

Hence the reason why you also believe in the 'once saved always saved principle'.
i stopped reading after the first lines, i had enough
Zahlanzi
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10 Jun '11 15:24
Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=====================================
jaywill is contradicting himself (he does that often). he says it is true that he only needs to believe in christ and be saved but then he goes on saying he needs to live like christ?
=================================

There is no contradition there.

You see it may meet my need to be saved from da ...[text shortened]... ing saved in His life. It is not a discussion on eternal redemption.[/b]
so basically, what you are saying, is that it is enough to believe in jesus to be saved. what if you kill someone after? do you get unsaved? but you still believe in jesus which should be enough to save you. are you permitted an endless cycle of jerkiness and believing in jesus and still be saved? i assume that would be as long as you manage to profess your belief in jesus right before you die.

I can say I was saved when I was born again.
Yet I am being saved daily as the Spirit transforms my soul.
And when I am resurrected or the Lord raptures me alive, I will be saved in my physical body too.

these three lines would only make sense if three jaywills would go to heaven. spirit jaywill is the most lucky, he simply has to perform one simple thing and he is off the hook. soul jaywill got the most sour deal, he has to work for salvation all his life. body jaywill has to wait for it until resurrection. until then it is worm food. at resurrection/rapture i am guessing he has to track down all his atoms that were once in his body and put them back together like the stupidest jigsaw puzzle ever invented.

God is not happy that we just remain FORGIVEN but not transformed or not conformed or not sanctified.
this is the line where you agree with the less schooled in whatever religious sect's dogma you adhere to. god is not happy just to hear you believe in jesus. you need more. you need to actually work for salvation. the first step, while necessary is not suficient. and it is not separate from it. and it is not a different salvation. there aren't 3 different salvations (this is the first time i hear about it. it sounds stupid btw).

you get saved or you don't. you get judged depending on a lot of factors. and in my view, jesus would rather forgive you for not believing in himself and professing your love for him than doing that and being a jerk towards everyone
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10 Jun '11 16:404 edits
What we have here is a seemingly paradoxical issue.

I liken it to when something is theoretical we can understand it know how it works but until we actual try it we still don't know. Like the bridge built. We know it should bear the weight of millions of cars. Should hold to wind and quake. With Christ we can say we believe (I'm guilty of this at times) but until we act on this belief (works of good) it's meaningless. The flip side of this is how can works alone save? In God's eyes will a sinful person stand before God and say see God I did all of these works to earn my way. God will say I don't know you. I think pride is the issue there. Another issue is why do we come to Christ in the first place? At first it (for me at least) was to be saved from hell LOL 🙂 However this seems silly years later.
My frustration with Church is that I would feel like what are we doing to change and help the neighborhood or people around us? Nothing. I felt like a lump on a log I figured why waste my time sitting in a pew getting fat?

Manny
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10 Jun '11 17:24
Originally posted by menace71
What we have here is a seemingly paradoxical issue.

I liken it to when something is theoretical we can understand it know how it works but until we actual try it we still don't know. Like the bridge built. We know it should bear the weight of millions of cars. Should hold to wind and quake. With Christ we can say we believe (I'm guilty of this at times) ...[text shortened]... like a lump on a log I figured why waste my time sitting in a pew getting fat?

Manny
According to Christ you need both faith and good works to get salvation.
What is the paradoxical issue? Is not the teachings of Christ clear enough?
menace71
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10 Jun '11 18:06
Well the faith vs works issue maybe it's just a man made paradox of course. Have to have faith to do the works and you will not do the works unless you have faith IN Christ.

Manny