1. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    10 Jun '11 18:10
    Something relevant:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
  2. Standard memberRajk999
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    10 Jun '11 18:35
    Originally posted by menace71
    Well the faith vs works issue maybe it's just a man made paradox of course. Have to have faith to do the works and you will not do the works unless you have faith IN Christ.




    Manny
    Well you are saying the same thing Im saying but in different words.

    Both faith and works are necessary for salvation.

    Faith alone does not cut it as you just said
    Same thing for works alone.
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    10 Jun '11 18:371 edit
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Something relevant:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
    Those preachers base their doctrine on this passage :

    Matt 6:31-34 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself...
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    10 Jun '11 19:115 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    So the answer is YES, once saved always saved.
    Now you well know that Christ stressed the importance of good works and He went so far as to state categorically that those who do not do good works will not get eternal life.
    How do you reconcile your apparently conflicting theology with that of Christ?
    ================================
    So the answer is YES, once saved always saved.
    ==================================


    Did you notice nothing when I wrote of the different ways in which the word "saved" is used in the New Testament ? Did that all go in one ear and out the other ?

    In terms of "saved" from eternal perdition, yes, once saved from eternal perdition one "shall by no means perish forever" (John 10:28) .

    But that is not the only matter which a man needs salvation.
    I thought your were paying attention when I briefly explained this.

    ================================
    Now you well know that Christ stressed the importance of good works and He went so far as to state categorically that those who do not do good works will not get eternal life.
    =================================


    If it is catagorically stated then let me examine the specific passage you want to submit.

    =================================
    How do you reconcile your apparently conflicting theology with that of Christ?
    ===================================


    I reconcile dispensational discipline with the GIFT of eternal life carefully and fairly.

    You see there is no assumption on my part that when Jesus saves a man He has no possibility to further adjust, correct, or perfect that man. That is a false assumption.

    Once the Lord Jesus receives a believing sinner, there exists a wide scope of possible disciplines He may administer to that forgiven sinner aside from going back on His promise that such shall never perish forever.

    In fact the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth does not even commence immediatley upon the second coming of Christ. We see that the span of 1,000 years as a preliminary millennial kingdom is mentioned five or six times after the battle of Armegeddon and before the eternal age of Revelation 21 and 22:

    1.) The millennial kingdom - "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the abyss and a great chain. And he lais hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years." (Rev. 20:1,2)

    During that thousand years Christ still has time to work on some of His saved saints.

    2.) The millennial kingdom - " ... that he [Satan] might not deceive the nations any longer until the thousand years were completed ..." (v.3)

    During that thousand years Christ has time to further perfect some of his saints who did not produce proper works in the age of grace. Though they have eternal life they need further sanctification in order to LIVE that life and enjoy that life.

    3.) The millennial kingdom - "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded becausee of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, ... and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (v.4)

    During that thousand years all who have received the gift of eternal life will be divided into those rewarded for this period and those in need of further perfecting.

    Once saved from eternal perdition always saved from eternal perdition. That does NOT mean that Christ cannot further discipline His saved saint during this preliminary 1,000 year kingdom.

    4.) The millennial kingdom - "The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection." (v. 5)

    Between the first resurrection and the second resurrection 1,000 years latter, Jesus Christ still has time to perform some dispensational perfecting of those saints who are in need of it.

    5.) The millennial kingdom - " Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years." (v. 6)

    Examining the New Testament carefully we see that to reign is a reward shared by some overoming saints. So the Lord still has a thousand years in which defeated Christians can be matured.

    They do not lose the gift of eternal redemption or eternal life. They do have to be further shepherded into living that eternal life.

    6.) The millennial kingdom - "And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will bereleased from his prison." (v. 7)

    Before Satan goes to eternal damnation and before the age of the new heaven and new earth, Christ still has 1,000 years in which to accomplish some matters over His people.

    So you see Rajk999, too many people fail to notice that the eternal age does not commence immediately upon the second coming of Christ or at the resurrection of all His saints.

    And sometimes entering eternal life or enjoying eternal life is in reference to enjoying the blessings of this preliminary time of 1,000 years.

    No one who is born of God will perish forever as the Lord promised. Their eternal redemption is secure. Their reward or discipline based upon works is not garuanteed though.
  5. Standard memberRajk999
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    10 Jun '11 20:42
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]================================
    So the answer is YES, once saved always saved.
    ==================================


    Did you notice nothing when I wrote of the different ways in which the word "saved" is used in the New Testament ? Did that all go in one ear and out the other ?

    In terms of "saved" from eternal perdition, yes ...[text shortened]... secure. Their reward or discipline based upon works is not garuanteed though.[/b]
    I am reading it. But some of your analysis is so long that I need to focus on certain key statements. Most of foundation for your conclusion that the once saved always saved principle ie saved from eternal perdition, seems to be this statement :

    ***************************
    In terms of "saved" from eternal perdition, yes, once saved from eternal perdition one "shall by no means perish forever" (John 10:28) .

    ***************************
    Here is the passage :

    John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


    Is it your conclusion that all Christians who profess that they believe in Christ qualify as 'Christ sheep'?
  6. Standard memberRJHinds
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    10 Jun '11 21:52
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Here is a quote from RJHinds in the thread "Making an example out of the unfortunate":

    [quote]I do not help people because they are poor. I do not believe it
    is my fault they are poor. So it does not matter to me if a person
    is rich or poor. I will only help a person if I feel like helping them.
    I do not believe Jesus requires me to help the poor be ...[text shortened]... y much like the modus operandi of the Rich Man in Christ's story of the Rich Man and Lazarus?
    No comment.
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    11 Jun '11 12:24
    Originally posted by menace71
    Well the faith vs works issue maybe it's just a man made paradox of course. Have to have faith to do the works and you will not do the works unless you have faith IN Christ.




    Manny
    yes, because all atheists are bastards and all those who have faith do a lot of works.

    it is not a paradox, those things go together. and i am unsure about the faith part. i believe god would rather forgive a muslim who leads a good life than a christian who beats his wife and kids
  8. Standard memberRJHinds
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    11 Jun '11 12:29
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    yes, because all atheists are bastards and all those who have faith do a lot of works.

    it is not a paradox, those things go together. and i am unsure about the faith part. i believe god would rather forgive a muslim who leads a good life than a christian who beats his wife and kids
    It is Jesus that makes that decision.
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    11 Jun '11 16:04
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I am reading it. But some of your analysis is so long that I need to focus on certain key statements. Most of foundation for your conclusion that the once saved always saved principle ie saved from eternal perdition, seems to be this statement :

    ***************************
    In terms of "saved" from eternal perdition, yes, once saved from eternal perditio ...[text shortened]... ion that all Christians who profess that they believe in Christ qualify as 'Christ sheep'?
    ====================================
    I am reading it. But some of your analysis is so long that I need to focus on certain key statements. Most of foundation for your conclusion that the once saved always saved principle ie saved from eternal perdition, seems to be this statement :

    ===========================================



    To the criticism of length I have to plead guilty.

    Some things need more space to explain wewll. I know this is the age of "Explain it all in 25 words or less". This is the "sound bite" age. People don't have the time to really get into in depth analysis.

    I am prone to lose patience also. It is the Internet age.

    But you see, if you make your explanation TOO SHORT then of course some wise guy critic will quickly chime off "But you OVERLOOKED THIS PROBLEM. And you did not address THIS issue. And you are not considering THIS other angle over here. See how good of a critic I am ??"

    So I try to put myself in the other person's place, anticipate a little what they are still going to object to, and explain in more detail.

    The price is that it become "verbose". And folks like yourself will get bored of reading it and go off scratching the head as why I couldn't just say it all in two sentences.

    That's just the times we live in I guess.
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    11 Jun '11 16:121 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I am reading it. But some of your analysis is so long that I need to focus on certain key statements. Most of foundation for your conclusion that the once saved always saved principle ie saved from eternal perdition, seems to be this statement :

    ***************************
    In terms of "saved" from eternal perdition, yes, once saved from eternal perditio ion that all Christians who profess that they believe in Christ qualify as 'Christ sheep'?
    ===================================
    Here is the passage :

    John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    Is it your conclusion that all Christians who profess that they believe in Christ qualify as 'Christ sheep'?
    =================================



    Thanks Rajk999.

    Christ's sheep are all those who have been regenerated and received Christ in that passage.

    Now you like short answers so don't be surprised that some caveat which I did not include could be brought up by way of objection.
  11. Standard memberRajk999
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    11 Jun '11 21:211 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]===================================
    Here is the passage :

    John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    Is it your conclusion that all Christians who profess that they believe in Christ qualify as ...[text shortened]... surprised that some caveat which I did not include could be brought up by way of objection.
    [/b]
    Christ says in John 10:28 that his sheep are those who 'follow Him'. I hope you understand that the way I do and 'follow' means follow His commandments and not simply to follow as a duck would.

    Is it your interpretation that once someone accepts Christ verbally and they are baptised/born again, that they immediately are regenerated and they all live new lives and they all follow Christs commandments? Well that certainly is not the case. It maybe be the case with you personally and you will know that you are following Christ. You cannot say Christian X or Y is saved from eternal perdition.

    Bear in mind Christ is fully aware of the difference between someone who says he will follow Him and someone who actually follows him. Christ is not interested in empty promises but in action.

    Matt 21:28-31 A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

    In my opinion only Christ knows who is following him and who is saved from eternal perdition and for Christians to walk around proclaiming that they are saved and they dont need to do good works, is unscriptural, its contrary to what Christ preached and and an insult to Him.
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    12 Jun '11 11:29
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    It is Jesus that makes that decision.
    yes, and knowing how merciful jesus was, who do you think will get the heaven ticket? how did he treat the pharisees that only obeyed the letter of the law and not the spirit?
  13. Standard memberRJHinds
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    12 Jun '11 13:58
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    yes, and knowing how merciful jesus was, who do you think will get the heaven ticket? how did he treat the pharisees that only obeyed the letter of the law and not the spirit?
    That ought to speak well of me because I am not too good with letters.
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