Compelled to change?

Originally posted by vistesd
“Above all else?” I don’t think that’s what he said. Besides, if the Christ is the conduit of love, and God is love, then you’re talking, in a sense, of loving love. Loving God is loving the love that enables you to love your neighbor and yourself. Do you get the dynamic there?

Now, I am not talking about simply desire—and neither is KM. But agape ...[text shortened]... livering that message in ways that I personally thank him for—because I needed the reminder.

"There is no conflict between love and truth: because truth bows to love."

Does truth turns into a lie when it bows to love ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
You (... together with a lot of people) are confusing two things: detecting and recognising the sin in a person's behaviour and "judging" someone ( .... by casting a stone for instance).

Christ's statement "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" does not mean that you are not allowed to point out the sinning nature of someone's behaviour.

May ...[text shortened]... true Christian then one cannot possibly propagate homosexual acts as being morally good.

Well said.

Originally posted by whodey
Well said.

If this is what you believe, then why do you judge homosexuals unworthy of membership or leadership? Why do you not similarly judge those who partake in gluttony or have wealth?

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is about hypocrisy. Why do you not similarly judge YOUR hypocrisy?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
You (... together with a lot of people) are confusing two things: detecting and recognising the sin in a person's behaviour and "judging" someone ( .... by casting a stone for instance).

Christ's statement "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" does not mean that you are not allowed to point out the sinning nature of someone's behaviour.

May ...[text shortened]... true Christian then one cannot possibly propagate homosexual acts as being morally good.

Ivanhoe, you probably missed this in my post :

Churches that have the spirit of the teachings of Christ will not expel homosexual members who are otherwise good Christians. They will instead exhort them to change and if that fails you simply leave them to be judged by Christ.

Im am not confusing anything.
I said homosexuality is a sin.
I said its ok to point out the sin which members are guilty of.
I said its not Christ-like to expel them (ie judge and punish them)

Originally posted by whodey
What is one to do? One should focus on their relationship with Christ first and foremost obeying the mandate Christ layed before us that we are to love him above all else no matter the cost which includes our very lives. Sometimes I think Christians are soft in this regard. Would we really give our lives for him let alone sexual pursuits that we may interpret as being contrary to his will for us?

So if Martin Luther King had been a homosexual what then? Here was a man that gave everything to live the life (and die the death) .Would God have been that bothered if he had been gay? I think not. MLK was a great servant of Christ who did a thousand times more than any stuffy , homophobic bishop did to change the world around him. By your logic if he had been gay that would have been a big deal for christ. Once again I ask why does God have such a problem in your opinion with homosexuality. Who is it hurting ? How is it hindering the kingdom? Why the big fuss over what is essentially a private expression of intimate love? One can immediately see how other sins (like adultery , murder , gluttony , envy etc etc ) can be dangerous and destructive to individuals but you have not ONCE made any similar arguement about homosexuality.

...meanwhile the important issues in the church and the world are skimmed over.....

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If this is what you believe, then why do you judge homosexuals unworthy of membership or leadership? Why do you not similarly judge those who partake in gluttony or have wealth?

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is about hypocrisy. Why do you not similarly judge YOUR hypocrisy?

I think we have come full circle and gotten no where. What do you think?

Originally posted by knightmeister
So if Martin Luther King had been a homosexual what then? Here was a man that gave everything to live the life (and die the death) .Would God have been that bothered if he had been gay? I think not. MLK was a great servant of Christ who did a thousand times more than any stuffy , homophobic bishop did to change the world around him. By your logic if h ...[text shortened]... xuality.

...meanwhile the important issues in the church and the world are skimmed over.....

MLK? What if he were a drunk? What if he were a liar? What if he were a murderer etc, etc? I think we are talking about two different things here. One is what constitutes a sin and the other is what to do about a particular sin when it is identified? I would assume you would agree that being a drunk, being a liar etc, etc, are sins. Therefore, what would you do about them in the case of MLK? I am sure he had sinned at some point, don't you?

The real issue that is being avoided here is whether or not homosexual acts are a sin. Then whether it is recognized as such or not the question then becomes what to do about it if anything at all.

Originally posted by vistesd
“Above all else?” I don’t think that’s what he said. Besides, if the Christ is the conduit of love, and God is love, then you’re talking, in a sense, of loving love. Loving God is loving the love that enables you to love your neighbor and yourself. Do you get the dynamic there?

Now, I am not talking about simply desire—and neither is KM. But agape delivering that message in ways that I personally thank him for—because I needed the reminder.

There is no conflict between love and righteousness in God: because righteousness bows to love.
This type of "theology" leads to all kinds of confusion.

Originally posted by whodey
I think we have come full circle and gotten no where. What do you think?

Sadly you remain a bigot and hypocrite.

If you ever wonder why some people have such disdain for Christianity, it's only because of people like you. This is unfortunate because most will never take the time to understand that people like you don't at all reflect the teachings of Jesus.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Sadly you remain a bigot and hypocrite.

If you ever wonder why some people have such disdain for Christianity, it's only because of people like you. This is unfortunate because most will never take the time to understand that people like you don't at all reflect the teachings of Jesus.

And sadly you ignore the Mosaic laws that Christ continually pointed to as I have shown. Therefore, to get to me you must go through the Mosaic law. You said earlier that you interpreted Leviticus 18:22 as targeting male prostitutes and those who were promiscuous etc, etc, and not committed homosexual relationships. How is it that you interpret it this way? Also, if you lived back in Mosaic times and you had a "committed" homosexual relationship, do you think you would be stoned or embraced? You have as yet not answered these questions and really there is nothing more to say until they are addressed.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]There is no conflict between love and righteousness in God: because righteousness bows to love.
This type of "theology" leads to all kinds of confusion.[/b]

Thus that is what we have in our world today which is mass confusion.

Originally posted by whodey
And sadly you ignore the Mosaic laws that Christ continually pointed to as I have shown. Therefore, to get to me you must go through the Mosaic law. You said earlier that you interpreted Leviticus 18:22 as targeting male prostitutes and those who were promiscuous etc, etc, and not committed homosexual relationships. How is it that you interpret it this way not answered these questions and really there is nothing more to say until they are addressed.

For someone who purportedly follows the God of Truth, you pretty consistently misstate what I've said. You're such a liar. What do the scriptures say about liars?

The god you follow is the "God of whodey", not the God of Truth.

The bottom line is that as a hypocrite, bigot, liar, and whatever other sins you are guilty of, you have no right to be judging others as you do. Even if you were not guilty of any sins, you'd have no right to arbitrarily decide which sins preclude membership or leadership in a church.

Originally posted by whodey
MLK? What if he were a drunk? What if he were a liar? What if he were a murderer etc, etc? I think we are talking about two different things here. One is what constitutes a sin and the other is what to do about a particular sin when it is identified? I would assume you would agree that being a drunk, being a liar etc, etc, are sins. Therefore, what wou ...[text shortened]... is recognized as such or not the question then becomes what to do about it if anything at all.

MLK? What if he were a drunk? What if he were a liar? What if he were a murderer etc, etc? whodey

..if he was a drunk then he would be destroying the temple of the holy spirit (his body) and be affecting his mental judgements. If he were a liar then this would undermine his commitment to integrity and honesty and would be deceitful which would hurt others. If he were a murderer he would be hurting others in an obvious way that would also undermine his message.

So , I can give you clear and rational reasons how and why all these things would hurt others or himself and be detrimental to his overall message. Over to you now...how would being gay affect his message or others?? Once again (and again and again) are you able to offer me anything other than "it's a sin because it says so"?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]There is no conflict between love and righteousness in God: because righteousness bows to love.
This type of "theology" leads to all kinds of confusion.[/b]

I know ...it's confusing trying to think for yourself isn't it?

Surely eveything bows to love in the end. If love isn't where it's at for you then why bother with Christianity? If you want rigidity and black and white rules with a remote God that never interacts with people and has not sense of humour try Islam , I think you might like it.

Originally posted by whodey
Thus that is what we have in our world today which is mass confusion.

Question- why is the sin of homosexuality so often discussed but the sin of rejecting human beings , judging and leaving christians isolated outside the church community not discussed. Do you not realise that people commit suicide over these issues? When is the church going to wake up to it's hidden sins? Whatever the issues are around sexuality it's just not worth the grief , pain and sadness that is brought upon people as a result of this . We need a humane approach to this otherwise the church will begin to appear inhumane. As soon as we put scripture over people we are in trouble. The Jesus I know would have no part in it and would stand with the isolated , not the ordained. Where is our humanity? Are we not losing the very spirit of what Christ is all about?


One thing is for sure homosexuals today are being pushed away from the church and are feeling unaccepted by christs followers - this is too high a price to pay for scriptural niceties.