17 Jul 06
2 edits
Originally posted by borissaI have a basic fundamental question. If there is an Almighty or God of this vast universe, He must be one and THE only one for all creatures, all beings - whether he be muslim or christian or any other. How can He instigate one group of his followers to kill other fellow beings in His creation? But it is a fact that in the name of God or Allah , some people do kill others, with a strong conviction (belief) of being rewarded by "their" God for such acts of violence.
We choose to fight and kill each other. God has given us the free will to choose to do this. Those who love God have no fear of death anyway.
Does it not prove that there is , in reality , no God. People are fighting and killing for an illusory concept of God, which is their own creation? It also means that any strong group of brainwashed people, with a larger number of committed followers ready to kill or get killed , can wreak havoc on the rest of the humanity and perpetrate the atrocious dictatorship of the leadership of that group.
And if there is no God then it is perfectly fine for the victor. There is nothing wrong in torturing the victim, if there is no God, for , it is perfectly all right from the point of view of the victor. The fact that this sort of dictatorial and tortuous philosophy has been exponentially successful in the course of history, is a very strong proof of the non-existence of God. Look at history. Islamic empire has seen only one-way irreversible expansion. It works through the grip of the triumphalist philosophy that is Islam. As long as it works (from their point of view) for them no amount of logic or rationalisation on humanitarian considerations is not going to convince the leaders of muslim community.
Jesus Christ's love and compassion may appeal to philosophers, not to empire builders. Even today, in day to day life common man can be better subjugated by the mediaval barbaric methods of terror - tactics. Saints can only die for the cause of love and compassion. Saints can never rule. Ruling over peoples is the central idea inherent in Islam. Though the concept of a terrorising people in the name of God, has been built around the social customs to tame the rebels, actually it is not God but the dictatorial community leaders who wreak havoc on those who dare to question the authority of the community leaders. Thus islam is more of a successful political philosophy, than a religeon. This political philosophy is shrewedly wrapped up in the garb of God's horrifying commands claimed to have been communicated to the "prophet" .
Nobody is allowed to question this, not even non-muslims. Recently a minister (obviously muslim) in the government of one of the states of India openly announced a reward of Rs. 510 million ( about $ 11 million) to anyone who can behead the Denmark cartoonist who had made a cartoon of Prophet Mohammad. In a population of 1200 million muslims around the world , there is always the the possibility of some freak zealot finding enough motivation and the chance to execute this sort of command of beheading the poor cartoonist. All in the name of Allah and Jihad. If , they get a chance, they may even slit your throat, for floating your web-site. Rarest of the rare can muster courage to raise any slightaest voice of reason to question the basic tenets of islam.
All over the world , in all the countries muslims are expanding, their population is rising faster than other religious groups. As soon as muslims become a majority in any country, they declare the country an islamic state ruled according to sharia, the islamic law. Even modern educated muslims have to ultimately surrender. You may win intellectually, but you will not be allowed to build a society based on principles of freedom, secularism and democracy in any country where muslims are in majority. Look at what is happening in Iraq. Don't you think that , in trying to build democracy in Iraq , sooner or later US will have to beat an ignominous retreat from Iraq?
Such is the grip of islamic totalitarianism. Common muslims too are not to be blamed. They are at best helpless victims to a system , which they can't break free out of, no matter how much they wish to.
But there is yet some reason to believe that perhaps there may indeed be a God. Else how could there emerge people like Ali Sina and Taslima Nasreen from among the muslims, who have staked their life and risked livelihood for the sake of human values, for the values of love, compassion, freedom, democracy and have raised the sane voice of reason.
May God ( if there be any God), give them success and fulfilment . May the muslims all over the world be liberated from the vice like grip of evil Islam. May the muslims live free and may tyrannical Islam be gone. may a new humanitarian islam , of the true universal values, take the place of the old dictatorial islam. Every religion has some outdated belief-system. Let all religions converge to the common humanitarian values of a modern religion of today. Some day somebody will have to fill the vacuum. You cannot hope the people to live in vacuum. If you must take away what has lost relevance, what has become stale and counter-productive, then you must also give them something positive to look forward to in its place. And you must be honest. If you suggest them the alternative of christianity, you will be discredited as an agent of the expansionist church. Some real workable alternative , which appeals to the modern mind of the common man.
Doing only first half of the job will not work. For the job of trying to liberate the victims. I think, one also has to take up the task of suggesting the positive alternative too. Otherwise soon people will revert to their old cocoon of safety- for, there is safety in NOT THINKING; there is safety in NOT analysing and there is safety in treading the beaten path. This latter danger is a real and strong danger. Without an alternative, any critical analysis remains just an empty criticism
Right now the minds of all thinking people, all over the world, are in turmoil. But I am sure an alternative will emerge , if there is a God.
17 Jul 06
Originally posted by ranjan sinhawell put.....A food for thought indeed..
I have a basic fundamental question. If there is an Almighty or God of this vast universe, He must be one and THE only one for all creatures, all beings - whether he be muslim or christian or any other. How can He instigate one group of his followers to kill other fellow beings in His creation? But it is a fact that in the name of God or Allah , some ...[text shortened]... in turmoil. But I am sure an alternative will emerge , if there is a God.
17 Jul 06
yes, people do bad things, 'in the name of God'. But God does not tell them to do these things. They merely interperet his word (the Bible/any other holy book) as meaning what they wish it to.
John 13:34 - A new commandment I give to you: love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
Jesus wants us to be accepting like him, and to love everyone regardless.
18 Jul 06
Originally posted by ranjan sinhaVery good post, upto this point:
I have a basic fundamental question. If there is an Almighty or God of this vast universe, He must be one and THE only one for all creatures, all beings - whether he be muslim or christian or any other. How can He instigate one group of his followers to kill other fellow beings in His creation? But it is a fact that in the name of God or Allah , some ...[text shortened]... in turmoil. But I am sure an alternative will emerge , if there is a God.
"But there is yet some reason to believe that perhaps there may indeed be a God. Else how could there emerge people like Ali Sina and Taslima Nasreen from among the muslims"
People like this arise through their own desire to escape the tyranny of religion.
By thinking this indicates there is a God, you have committed the very mistake you have thus far expounded - namely by illustrating that you are one of the "brainwashed people".
18 Jul 06
Originally posted by ranjan sinhaWhat this does prove is that there are people prepared to fight and kill in the name of a god of their own creation. I fail to see how this proves God does not exist though. If God did exist then why would we not expect this to happen? Christianity for example talks about a spiritual war between good and evil. What better way for the devil to discredit and try and mess up God's plan for us than by filling men's minds with false ideas about God and then setting them against each other? Jesus predicted that men would kill in the name of God and think they were "serving" God , but against a backdrop of religious zealots who wanted him to start a violent rebellion against the Romans he rejected violence and showed what the real God was all about.
[b].
Does it not prove that there is , in reality , no God. People are fighting and killing for an illusory concept of God, which is their own creation? It also means that any strong group of brainwashed people, with a larger number of committed followers ready to kill or get killed , can wreak havoc on the rest of the humanity and perpetrate the atrocious dictatorship of the leadership of that group.
So Christians are worldly enough to know there will always be false gods and false prophets around spreading lies and twisting the truth. It's all there in the Bible. It's not a great surprise. God gave us free will and men must take some responsibility for how they take religion and pervert it's message. Humanity has always been good at twisting truth this way and that . I don't see how what you are saying proves God does not exist any more than the existence of a flat earth society proves that a round earth doesn't exist.
18 Jul 06
Originally posted by ranjan sinhaInstigate? This is where you argument falls down. You have to show that God instigates his followers to commit violence against other men , and yet you have admitted that these men are doing this through belief in "a God of their own creation". So if it IS a "God of their own creation " it's not the real , living God is it? It's not in reality God that's instigating any of it but men's fantasies , prejudices , ignorance , hate etc , etc . I agree whole heartedly with your distaste for religious hatred (eg - Lebanon -Israel) but I think you are blaming the wrong guy and using it as an argument to discredit God (which is exactly what the devil wants you to do)
[b]I have a basic fundamental question. If there is an Almighty or God of this vast universe, He must be one and THE only one for all creatures, all beings - whether he be muslim or christian or any other. How can He instigate one group of his followers to kill other fellow beings in His creation? But it is a fact that in the name of God or Allah , some ...[text shortened]... , with a strong conviction (belief) of being rewarded by "their" God for such acts of violence.