The 1945 constitution in Indonesia designated - recognized - permitted - listed five religions.
[Curiously, to me anyway, Protestantism and Catholicism were and still are counted as two religions on that list of five.]
In 1998, after the Soeharto regime collapsed, President Gus Dur added Confucianism as a sixth religion; it was a part of the rolling back of longstanding and systematic discrimination against Chinese Indonesians.
That's good of course but... Confucianism a religion? How so?
Personally, I am not convinced that Buddhism is a religion, strictly speaking, but at least it can be said to have some supernatural elements [right?].
But, without a deity or deities to worship, and with its humanist basis rather than a supernatural one, what case can be made that Confucianism is a religion?
Thoughts?
02 Mar 19
@fmf saidWhen asked if he was a god. the Buddha replied, "I am awake" .
The 1945 constitution in Indonesia designated - recognized - permitted - listed five religions.
[Curiously, to me anyway, Protestantism and Catholicism were and still are counted as two religions on that list of five.]
In 1998, after the Soeharto regime collapsed, President Gus Dur added Confucianism as a sixth religion; it was a part of the rolling back of longstanding a ...[text shortened]... rather than a supernatural one, what case can be made that Confucianism is a religion?
Thoughts?
I believe Buddhism is a philosophy despite the Hindu belief that he is the 9th incarnation of Vishnu.
I have always regarded Confucianism, and Daoism as philosophies .
Perhaps philosophy is "better" than religion.
02 Mar 19
@moonbus saidMight this apply to Confucianism, is that what you mean, or perhaps to some of its adherents - or is your observation more aimed at my suggestion that for religions to be religions they have to have deities and/or supernatural elements?
Some people hold that the natural world is a living organism. I don’t see why that should not count as a religion.
03 Mar 19
@fmf saidThe latter.
Might this apply to Confucianism, is that what you mean, or perhaps to some of its adherents - or is your observation more aimed at my suggestion that for religions to be religions they have to have deities and/or supernatural elements?
@fmf said"Religion is a cultural system of designated behaviors and practices, morals, worldviews, texts, sanctified places, prophecies, ethics, or organizations, that relates humanity to supernatural, transcendental, or spiritual elements. However, there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion." Wikipedia
The 1945 constitution in Indonesia designated - recognized - permitted - listed five religions.
[Curiously, to me anyway, Protestantism and Catholicism were and still are counted as two religions on that list of five.]
In 1998, after the Soeharto regime collapsed, President Gus Dur added Confucianism as a sixth religion; it was a part of the rolling back of longstanding a ...[text shortened]... rather than a supernatural one, what case can be made that Confucianism is a religion?
Thoughts?
"Religion" etymology- Latin religare - to bind.
Religion is the bait attached to the trap. The trap is anything that blinds one to the truth. The truth is Jesus. Knowing Jesus is liberation from the trap.
Relationship, not religion.
Just my thoughts.
03 Mar 19
1 edit
@secondson saidThis sentence is a direct product of your adherence to your religion. But we don't have to agree about this.
Religion is the bait attached to the trap. The trap is anything that blinds one to the truth. The truth is Jesus. Knowing Jesus is liberation from the trap.
What do you think of listing Confucianism as a religion?
I tend to go by this definition [from Google]: "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods", which makes it difficult to perceive Confucianism as a religion in the same way as Hindusim, Christianity, Islam and Judaism.
03 Mar 19
Truth is the menu. The meal is something else. Organized religions which put great emphasis on written scriptures run the risk of confusing the menu for the meal and the map for the territory. The real meal is coming to be in a reverential relationship to something larger than oneself.
Truth is a map. The territory is something else. One who is familiar with the territory has no need of a map.
I think that deities are merely hypostatizations of eschatological issues. I see no reason to exclude non-theistic alternatives from the category "religion"; the essential item of religion for me is not whether a deity is involved, but rather the nature of the reverential relationship.
For further insights along these lines, I recommend J. Krishnamurti.
My two cents.
03 Mar 19
@fmf saidConfucianism and Buddhism are syncretic religions that often borrow local cosmologies and participate in these concepts.
The 1945 constitution in Indonesia designated - recognized - permitted - listed five religions.
[Curiously, to me anyway, Protestantism and Catholicism were and still are counted as two religions on that list of five.]
In 1998, after the Soeharto regime collapsed, President Gus Dur added Confucianism as a sixth religion; it was a part of the rolling back of longstanding a ...[text shortened]... rather than a supernatural one, what case can be made that Confucianism is a religion?
Thoughts?
There is the famous passage where Confucius says that he does not concern himself with spirits or these other supernatural practices, but I think that one of the more traditional concepts of this is that, in his role as a teacher of ethics and the way of heaven, he did not involve himself in the myriad of concepts of spirits that would have existed at that time.
Of course, one can be a materialist and a Confucianist, and thereby be "atheist" in the sense of not having a God, but it still largely functions as a religion.
It's also important to note things like how the Madhymaka comes off as atheist, but the bulk of traditional Tibetan Buddhists tend to believe in Brahma as an arch deity and Buddha as his prophet on earth. Even traditions in which there is a strong line of atheism, there is a lot of general theism.
I guess we would have to go back to the point, though, that it's hard to actually make a lot of conclusions about these Eastern religions within our rigid framework of what we think religion should be.
03 Mar 19
@fmf said@SecondSon said
This sentence is a direct product of your adherence to your religion. But we don't have to agree about this.
What do you think of listing Confucianism as a religion?
I tend to go by this definition [from Google]: "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods", which makes it difficult to perceive Confucianism as a religion in the same way as Hindusim, Christianity, Islam and Judaism.
Religion is the bait attached to the trap. The trap is anything that blinds one to the truth. The truth is Jesus. Knowing Jesus is liberation from the trap.
@FMF said
This sentence is a direct product of your adherence to your religion.
I have a relationship with the living God, not a religion. You can agree or disagree.
@secondson saidI disagree. Your religion is the biggest [most adherents] in the world. One of your religious beliefs that makes you a member of the biggest religion in the world is that you "...have a relationship with the living God". That is a religious belief.
I have a relationship with the living God, not a religion. You can agree or disagree.
03 Mar 19
@secondson saidNo matter how many times Christians like you say this, that Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship, it does not negate the fact that Christianity IS a religion.
"Religion is a cultural system of designated behaviors and practices, morals, worldviews, texts, sanctified places, prophecies, ethics, or organizations, that relates humanity to supernatural, transcendental, or spiritual elements. However, there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion." Wikipedia
"Religion" etymology- Latin religare ...[text shortened]... esus. Knowing Jesus is liberation from the trap.
Relationship, not religion.
Just my thoughts.
I agree that it is a relationship, but that is what makes it a religion.
If I believe in a deity, and that deity is my Creator, my Lord, my Savior, then yes, this is my religion.
By definition.
04 Mar 19
@fmf saidWhat remains consistent throughout Confucius' discourses on Tian is his threefold assumption about this extrahuman, absolute power in the universe: (1) its alignment with moral goodness, (2) its dependence on human agents to actualize its will, and (3) the variable, unpredictable nature of its associations with mortal actors. Thus, to the extent that the Confucius of the Analects is concerned with justifying the ways of Tian to humanity, he tends to do so without questioning these three assumptions about the nature of Tian, which are rooted deeply in the Chinese past.
Might this apply to Confucianism, is that what you mean, or perhaps to some of its adherents - or is your observation more aimed at my suggestion that for religions to be religions they have to have deities and/or supernatural elements?
The dependence of Tian upon human agents to put its will into practice helps account for Confucius' insistence on moral, political, social, and even religious activism. In one passage (17.19), Confucius seems to believe that, just as Tian does not speak but yet accomplishes its will for the cosmos, so too can he remain "silent" (in the sense of being out of office, perhaps) and yet effective in promoting his principles, possibly through the many disciples he trained for government service. At any rate, much of Confucius' teaching is directed toward the maintenance of three interlocking kinds of order: (1) aesthetic, (2) moral, and (3) social. The instrument for effecting and emulating all three is li (ritual propriety).
Do not look at, do not listen to, do not speak of, do not do whatever is contrary to ritual propriety. (12.1)
In this passage, Confucius underscores the crucial importance of rigorous attention to li as a kind of self-replicating blueprint for good manners and taste, morality, and social order. In his view, the appropriate use of a quotation from the Classic of Poetry (Shijing), the perfect execution of guest-host etiquette, and the correct performance of court ritual all serve a common end: they regulate and maintain order. The nature of this order is, as mentioned above, threefold. It is aesthetic -- quoting the Shijing upholds the cultural hegemony of Zhou literature and the conventions of elite good taste. Moreover, it is moral -- good manners demonstrate both concern for others and a sense of one's place. Finally, it is social -- rituals properly performed duplicate ideal hierarchies of power, whether between ruler and subject, parent and child, or husband and wife. For Confucius, the paramount example of harmonious social order seems to be xiao (filial piety), of which jing (reverence) is the key quality:
Observe what a person has in mind to do when his father is alive, and then observe what he does when his father is dead. If, for three years, he makes no changes to his father's ways, he can be said to be a good son. (1.11)
[The disciple] Ziyu asked about filial piety. The Master said, "Nowadays, for a person to be filial means no more than that he is able to provide his parents with food. Even dogs and horses are provided with food. If a person shows no reverence, where is the difference?" (2.7)
In serving your father and mother, you ought to dissuade them from doing wrong in the gentlest way. If you see your advice being ignored, you should not become disobedient but should remain reverent. You should not complain even if you are distressed. (4.18)
Above quoted from:
https://www.iep.utm.edu/confuciu/
Sounds like a religion to me. The element of reverence is present, which it is not in, for example, Stoicism. Stoicism is therefore a philosophy, not a religion, in my view.