1. Account suspended
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    10 Nov '12 21:253 edits
    (Matthew 5:3) 'Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom
    of the heavens belongs to them'.

    This is a deeply profound statement to make, that our personal happiness is
    dependent upon being aware that we have spiritual needs. A desire for meaning
    and purpose in our lives, to love and be loved, to exercise the faculty of conscience,
    to display wisdom and justice and many other things besides.

    My question is this, how does one satisfy ones spiritual needs? The great religions
    of Judaism and Islam formulated a legalistic and ritualistic approach (Sufism of
    course was a realisation that this was not enough) In contrast to the legalistic
    approach we have a kind of emotionalism so beloved by evangelical christians, very
    similar to the Sufis, dancing and clapping, of beating tambourines and in some
    instances inducing a trance like euphoria. There are methods of meditation and
    introspection, of seeking solitude and self contemplation. There were attempts to
    use artificial stimuli, drug inducement, from the psychedelic epoch of the sixties. In
    the eighties with its consumerism, were born, retail therapy, and attempt to improve
    ones disposition through the feeling of comfort. There are self help books which
    emphasise positivity and optimism or evolutionary psychology which assumes that
    human emotions are rooted in animal ancestry and many others besides.

    How does one satisfy ones spiritual needs?
  2. Joined
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    10 Nov '12 22:50
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    (Matthew 5:3) 'Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom
    of the heavens belongs to them'.

    This is a deeply...[text shortened]... How does one satisfy ones spiritual needs?
    Quoting Matt 5:3 NIV (a slightly different version)

    “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    I struggle with Matt 6:33 daily

    "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."

    Which is referring to food, clothes and such material things, but I believe it meant to be for spiritual things as well, like understanding, revelation, acceptance, etc.

    -K
  3. Melbourne, Australia
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    10 Nov '12 23:19
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    (Matthew 5:3) 'Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom
    of the heavens belongs to them'.

    This is a deeply profound statement to make, that our personal happiness is
    dependent upon being aware that we have spiritual needs. A desire for meaning
    and purpose in our lives, to love and be loved, to exercise the faculty ...[text shortened]... oted in animal ancestry and many others besides.

    How does one satisfy ones spiritual needs?
    One way of reflecting on these thoughtful words is to wonder about the supply for those needs - do we need to search for that supply, or is that itself an obstacle? Some have said so. I think it is implied in the words at the beginning. [How accurate or not an interpretation they are of the original is beside the point really - it is the meaning that has arisen in them as they stand before your spirit.]
    I take them as they have been displayed (I expect the original was equally as enigmatic and provocative for the spirit too) and the sense of them would be the same, as it appears to me. The "sermon on the mount" is a gem of the New Testament.

    The sense I get from those words is that "There It is - you have It - It already belongs to you - the moment you are aware of your need there It is - your very humble openness is the searching and its goal in one -you are already there and the whole "kingdom" is yours.

    And is this not true? So often our own ever-searching - is it not a lack of faith itself? We fail to trust that the provision for our spirit is already provided and that we do not have to go searching for it, just be open to it, be aware of our need, so relax and it will arise and answer, here, now? I think of some other words about 'birds in the field'.

    Are not the glasses for which we search, and through which we look already on the end of our nose? But trouble is we know too much, we "know" the need 'must' be searched for, the code 'must' be decoded, and some all knowing 'truth teller' is needed. But, its always just a pointer, a simple pointing out of what is already. The Kingdom of Heaven is within.

    From another wise one, from another tribe of man:

    "Similar to resolution in manifest buddhahood
    as total presence of the ambiguous gestalt of samsara and nirvana,
    when the flicker of inner-outer imaging
    naturally settles in the matrix of clarity
    in an unthought, unstructured, natural state,
    the immediate resolution in the crystal clarity of brilliant emptiness
    is known as "settling in the cavern of jewels".

    -Longchen Rabjampa
  4. SubscriberSuzianne
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    11 Nov '12 03:33
    Originally posted by Taoman
    One way of reflecting on these thoughtful words is to wonder about the supply for those needs - do we need to search for that supply, or is that itself an obstacle? Some have said so. I think it is implied in the words at the beginning. [How accurate or not an interpretation they are of the original is beside the point really - it is the meaning that has aris ...[text shortened]... ptiness
    is known as "settling in the cavern of jewels".

    -Longchen Rabjampa
    "God is in you, so we are all God."
    "The Kingdom of Heaven is within."

    Baloney.

    I satisfy my spiritual needs through prayer, a communion with a higher power. Yes, a *higher* power, that of the Creator, a being outside of myself. I submit to God. I do not create God. I am not God. I pray in Jesus' name, for He is the connector, without sin, the only bridge between sinful man and righteous God. I admit my sin. I do need a savior, one who can intercede with God on my behalf. I am imperfect, connecting with perfect God through one who was sent to earth to become a man, to bear my sin, so that I might connect with the perfection I am incapable of connecting with on my own.

    You would have us believe that we are already perfect and require no savior, no intercessor. How ludicrous, how dangerous and how blasphemous. This is the voice of Satan, trying to convince us to eat of the fruit all over again.
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    11 Nov '12 09:02
    Originally posted by kd2acz
    Quoting Matt 5:3 NIV (a slightly different version)

    “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    I struggle with Matt 6:33 daily

    "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."

    Which is referring to food, clothes and such material things, but I believe it meant to be for spiritual things as well, like understanding, revelation, acceptance, etc.

    -K
    ok, you seem to be saying that one receives understanding, wisdom etc through
    communion with God, via the medium of prayer. Is that an accurate portrayal of your
    position? If so it appears to me to be entirely Biblical, although, I suspect , that with
    like most prayers, one must do ones own part in harmony with the petition 🙂
  6. Account suspended
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    11 Nov '12 09:08
    Originally posted by Taoman
    One way of reflecting on these thoughtful words is to wonder about the supply for those needs - do we need to search for that supply, or is that itself an obstacle? Some have said so. I think it is implied in the words at the beginning. [How accurate or not an interpretation they are of the original is beside the point really - it is the meaning that has aris ...[text shortened]... ptiness
    is known as "settling in the cavern of jewels".

    -Longchen Rabjampa
    Such beautiful poetry. Can i ask how does one reach this 'cavern of jewels', whose
    lustre is held in the ability to refract light itself?
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    11 Nov '12 09:18
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    "God is in you, so we are all God."
    "The Kingdom of Heaven is within."

    Baloney.

    I satisfy my spiritual needs through prayer, a communion with a higher power. Yes, a *higher* power, that of the Creator, a being outside of myself. I submit to God. I do not create God. I am not God. I pray in Jesus' name, for He is the connector, without sin, the o ...[text shortened]... ous. This is the voice of Satan, trying to convince us to eat of the fruit all over again.
    Dear Suzzianne, while I personally agree with your theological stance one must
    remember to (Colossians 4:6) . . .Let your utterance be always with graciousness,
    seasoned with salt, so as to know how you ought to give an answer to each one.
    Buddhists are gentle people, to some harbouring even a violent thought is
    unwarranted, should this gentleness not be reflected back.
  8. Account suspended
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    11 Nov '12 09:20
    Originally posted by kd2acz
    Quoting Matt 5:3 NIV (a slightly different version)

    “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    I struggle with Matt 6:33 daily

    "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well."

    Which is referring to food, clothes and such material things, but I believe it meant to be for spiritual things as well, like understanding, revelation, acceptance, etc.

    -K
    the term itself literally comes from the Greek, to be 'beggars for the spirit'. 🙂
  9. Melbourne, Australia
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    11 Nov '12 10:46
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Such beautiful poetry. Can i ask how does one reach this 'cavern of jewels', whose
    lustre is held in the ability to refract light itself?
    The Cave is your "within". The Jewels are the "Kingdom".

    In this understanding, it comes to you, it is available through simply shifted view. There is no need to "reach it", if it is within. It is a mystery and difficult to put into words, but Christians of the mystic path have encountered this wondrous 'Cave' too. Not necessarily using the same language, we don't have to be copycats.

    Its like those 3D pictures that look all scrabbled and meaningless and then with a shifted view the form emerges. Or like those pictures of a hag and a beautiful woman in one picture - look at it one way its a hag, look at it another way its a profile of a beautiful woman. Same pictures, nothing changed they are both there there all the time. Samsara (the World) - Nirvana (The Place of Letting go of Dualities) both there all the time. Sometimes we are experiencing one then the other, but they are the same. Best way is to relax into it.

    A man of your abilities and sensitivity must know of these moments too. Its not always there. Times in your music? Deep religious moments? Sudden insights? Times when the mundane changes into...? Jewel moments of extra vision? Sorry if I am being intrusive.
    Quiet practice (I am still a learner) helps one to stay more often in touch with it. Do it your own way. You already have clues, I'm sure. Nothing needs to change externally. It comes from within.

    We can make it something too different, strange, when its not. Angels don't come bursting out of heaven or Buddha lights start flashing in your head or any of that stuff. It's in the moment, and can be any moment, when we are quietly open to it.

    It really doesn't matter whatever your overt brought up religion is, just don't let it put restrictions on your openness. I sound off sometimes just to shock out of our learnt rigidities - to allow for some openness, where it can only truly happen.

    Well, my suggestions anyway.
  10. Melbourne, Australia
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    11 Nov '12 11:13
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    "God is in you, so we are all God."
    "The Kingdom of Heaven is within."

    Baloney.

    I satisfy my spiritual needs through prayer, a communion with a higher power. Yes, a *higher* power, that of the Creator, a being outside of myself. I submit to God. I do not create God. I am not God. I pray in Jesus' name, for He is the connector, without sin, the o ...[text shortened]... ous. This is the voice of Satan, trying to convince us to eat of the fruit all over again.
    No, dear Suzianne, not baloney.

    I am sorry if what I say disturbs your place of safety, but it is too safe and closed off. These ways and ideas - you describe them in a sort of panicked way, telling me to go away. Calm down.

    I do not say I or you are the equivalent of what you call "God". I am neither an atheist or a theist. What I say you and I are is part of That Living Oneness that is Life itself. If you see that, if you are open to that thru your mirror of Jesus and your belief system that is ok, even if someone like me disagrees with too certain "fact" stating. But it is wrong to think it is the only way, and that is why I confront you and others who are trapped in rigidty with constantly.

    The divine is never able to be fully encompassed in words or ideas. If you are afraid and wary of new things for fear they might lead you astray in some way, then you do not trust your ability to choose. And you are unable to accept your own failings too. Openness, trust and acceptance is life, and I do not think the words of the sermon on the mount is much at variance with that.

    I sin (miss the target) and so do you. Yes, we need social rules of behaviour, and we choose those ourselves, as individuals and as a society, just like non-Christian societies do. You are choosing yours in your religion.

    Some other poor ones are damaged and harm others - forgiveness and healing is the best seeking, even while they are contained to prevent more damage and hurt. Hard authority only contains; it cannot achieve what 'agape' does. 'Agape' is the only true changer. I hope you know this version of "love".

    We are free, right or wrong, we are free. Openness, trust and acceptance. Sometimes we need call on other life virtues (commitments) too, like courage, fortitude, hope, kindness and strength. What stops you or I from choosing to follow such?
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    11 Nov '12 12:01
    Originally posted by Taoman
    The Cave is your "within". The Jewels are the "Kingdom".

    In this understanding, it comes to you, it is available through simply shifted view. There is no need to "reach it", if it is within. It is a mystery and difficult to put into words, but Christians of the mystic path have encountered this wondrous 'Cave' too. Not necessarily using the same language, ...[text shortened]... for some openness, where it can only truly happen.

    Well, my suggestions anyway.
    no you are not being intrusive in fact i find your perspective fascinating to be honest
    and i deeply love poetry although i myself harbour no pretensions of being a poet. The
    illustrations are particularly helpful as well. What is the nature of this dualism, is it
    moral, or physical/spiritual?
  12. Melbourne, Australia
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    11 Nov '12 13:571 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    no you are not being intrusive in fact i find your perspective fascinating to be honest
    and i deeply love poetry although i myself harbour no pretensions of being a poet. The
    illustrations are particularly helpful as well. What is the nature of this dualism, is it
    moral, or physical/spiritual?
    To perceive anything, to experience anything, physical, spiritual or mental, there needs to be a differentiation of some sort, a background against which a foreground is perceived. For instance a white piece of paper against a white wall in white light without shadows is virtually invisible.

    To know what beauty is, the knowing of ugliness must arise and vice versa. Our world and our mind needs this two-ness (duality) to be perceived and experienced. Yet the WHOLE thing, the experience, is also and embracingly a oneness and its FULL experiencing is when we are able to move between the necessary manifesting differentiation/duality, into a unified merging easily. This is focussing on the particular and unfocussing into the whole. But the whole and particular is also a duality even at best. When we are unconscious of either but still experiencing fully we are "awakened" to the fullness of the moment. Then the 'music' really flows.

    You would know it when you 'lose' the playing of the separate notes of your music and get lost in the whole musical experience itself. If you stop to analyse, it dissolves into duality and separateness immediately. We cannot consciously hold the one-ness and the two-ness aspects at the same time, but they are both part of it all.

    At our most aware levels we are able to be in fairly immediate contact with each aspect more quickly and smoothly (I have much to learn of that still - masters of many different paths are able to with much practice, and helped by aids like Sufi dancing, chanting, meditation, inner prayer etc.) Beyond that we are not aware of the twoness nor the oneness, we are just fully 'being'.

    This state of being open and aware encourages an expanded awareness and deeper insights, more meaningful dreaming, helpful coincidental events etc. Sometimes ecstatic states happen but not often. Conceptual thinking keeps us in conceptual mode. This is NOT conceptual mode. Here you forget all 'theology'. You don't reject it, you may hold your dear concepts but this is beyond that.
    That's how I see and sometimes experience it at the "jewel" view. Being open and ready is an important aspect to our daily level and responsiveness to the flow of life, as I see it anyway.

    We tie ourselves too tightly to concepts and they can hamper the openness. If you hold them, hold them lightly. Practicing neither rejection nor clinging helps our more authentic responding as individuals. Our own specific "nature" shines and honors the highest creative principle within us. We are all part of something Great, warts and all.
    This is how it appears to me, robbie. Thanks for listening. BTW your music is your poetry. From that angle, you are a very fine poet.
  13. SubscriberSuzianne
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    11 Nov '12 15:561 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Dear Suzzianne, while I personally agree with your theological stance one must
    remember to (Colossians 4:6) . . .Let your utterance be always with graciousness,
    seasoned with salt, so as to know how you ought to give an answer to each one.
    Buddhists are gentle people, to some harbouring even a violent thought is
    unwarranted, should this gentleness not be reflected back.
    Dear robbbie, I am accustomed to speak with clarity, so as not to be misunderstood. I do not speak softly with the voice of Satan, tempting us with his wiles, his promises that we too can be God. This is what beguiled Eve in the garden, this *exact* type of "gentleness".

    No. I will NOT go gentle into that good night. Sorry.
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    11 Nov '12 16:08
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    (Matthew 5:3) 'Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom
    of the heavens belongs to them'.

    This is a deeply profound statement to make, that our personal happiness is
    dependent upon being aware that we have spiritual needs. A desire for meaning
    and purpose in our lives, to love and be loved, to exercise the faculty ...[text shortened]... oted in animal ancestry and many others besides.

    How does one satisfy ones spiritual needs?
    I have a question...

    Why do you assume that everyone has 'spiritual needs'?

    Everyone does not think alike.

    http://lesswrong.com/lw/dr/generalizing_from_one_example/
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    11 Nov '12 16:51
    Originally posted by Taoman
    To perceive anything, to experience anything, physical, spiritual or mental, there needs to be a differentiation of some sort, a background against which a foreground is perceived. For instance a white piece of paper against a white wall in white light without shadows is virtually invisible.

    To know what beauty is, the knowing of ugliness must arise and v ...[text shortened]... ening. BTW your music is your poetry. From that angle, you are a very fine poet.
    This is focussing on the particular and unfocussing into the whole,

    this is incredibly interesting, for example if one wanted to climb a mountain, for its
    own sake, to enjoy the panorama, or the thrill of accomplishment, if one was to stay
    focused on the movements of ones feet one is liable to miss the mountain
    altogether and my wander off into a precipice, if on the other hand one ignores the
    movements of ones feet entirely and focuses entirely upon the mountain peak, one
    is likely to stumble over a rock and similarly end up in a precipice, thus it appears to
    me that for the path to be made safe, one needs to focus and unfocus like you say.
    This reminded my of a scripture,

    Your word is a lamp to my feet (focusing on the immediate and particular) and a
    light to my roadway (focusing on the path ahead or future) Psalm 119:105, thus by
    focusing and unfocussing one hopes to pertain to a balance and reach ones ultimate
    destination, safely.

    I really appreciate your use of illustrations Taoman, they are very helpful in
    explaining quite deep concepts and are the sign of a great teacher. My own opinion
    of a poet is that there are those persons who are able to take particular elements
    which we all observe and experience and which are buried in a kind of collective
    subconsciousness and bring them to the fore so that we may share the experience.
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