Could I invite any Christians please to answer ...

Originally posted by duecer

Most religous orginizations do charity work, in fact most charity work is done by theist's

Most work is done by theists.

Most crime is committed by theists.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Most work is done by theists.

Most crime is committed by theists.

Yes and yes. Still proud to be theist?

Originally posted by mazda9934
Please bring to mind your image of God.

Then, please tell me why he allows very small children to suffer and die ??

(No one has EVER given me a plausible answer to this question)

A few things

1) who are you that anyone has to give you any plausible answer. There is nothing to prove to you, your aren't God nor are you any type of judge within the spiritual realm.

2) You must realize that there is a devil. Since God gave us (man) free will, the question should be why does man allow little children to suffer and die. Do you give to the homeless. Have you ever helped a little child ourself? You may have if so how often? If you catch yourself walking past someone who is in need of help, and you don't aren't you now guity of the same crime that you are accusing God of?

3) Within the Bible it states that God will judges us for the sins that we make. That's His job to judge us. When we give food, we are suppose to do it in the the name of God. It is God who puts it on your heart to give , help, show kindness to your follow man, even if you don't believe in Him.

Now we Christians as a people are not perfect by any means. We have killed, raped, stolen, lied, etc...That's what Jesus is for, to forgive us of our sins (once repented and asked for, your asking must come from the heart) Then try your best to live holy, remember God did not say I want you to be perfect, He wants us to try to be pure.

Question for you, what other religion does a God give to His children. God gave us Jesus. All other religions require a sacrifice of some sort.
Go find that religion if you can, and remember it's not the religion that is corrupt, it's the people who follow, they just lose sight, and their our opinion.

Originally posted by realeyez
Since God gave us (man) free will, the question should be why does man allow little children to suffer and die.

Do you think 'man' is responsible for painful genetic defects like:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteogenesis_imperfecta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankylosing_spondylitis

Nemesio

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
He also lets vast numbers of small children suffer and die across the whole entire world and does so because, like the rest of us, he is not “all powerful” and therefore doesn’t have the means to prevent such pointless suffering. “god” (if he exists) is supposed to be “all powerful” and so presumably has no such excuse.

What would a world completely free of suffering actually look like though? Could freedom exist in such a world? Would men be free to make good/bad choices?

Christian belief is that one day God will end all suffering and pain and the world will be redeemed. The problem is on that day life as we know it will end too.

Regarding suffering one could ask of any parent - "why do you allow your son to suffer and feel pain when he falls of his bike when you could prevent it?"

Originally posted by knightmeister
What would a world completely free of suffering actually look like though? Could freedom exist in such a world? Would men be free to make good/bad choices?

Christian belief is that one day God will end all suffering and pain and the world will be redeemed. The problem is on that day life as we know it will end too.

Regarding suffering one could u allow your son to suffer and feel pain when he falls of his bike when you could prevent it?"

The answer - "Because I can't prevent it while also living my life, and I won't always be able to prevent it. I'm a limited human and so is he. I can't always be watching out for him and so he needs to learn to be tough and resourceful."

That answer doesn't work for God.

One might also ask a parent why they don't allow their child the free will to play on the freeway.

One might also ask God why he does allow us to risk misery and torment in the name of free will. If we're his children he's damn negligent considering his infinite ability.

Originally posted by knightmeister
What would a world completely free of suffering actually look like though? Could freedom exist in such a world? Would men be free to make good/bad choices?

Christian belief is that one day God will end all suffering and pain and the world will be redeemed. The problem is on that day life as we know it will end too.

Regarding suffering one could u allow your son to suffer and feel pain when he falls of his bike when you could prevent it?"

…Would men be free to make good/bad choices?…

No, because there is no excuse for this “god“ to allow “bad” choices when giving us freedom to make choices!

Why would an all powerful but kind god be either unable or unwilling to so arrange the world so that every person is given many choices but those choices are all good choices that don’t lead to any suffering or potential suffering?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
[b]…What about the child suffering and deaths we didn’t cause by lack of cooperation etc?

You missed my point; all suffering could be ended by co-operation, not that its caused by a lack of it. …

Don’t get me wrong; I am all for any cooperation that reduces child suffering and deaths. But, can any amount of cooperation prevent all child su ...[text shortened]... : in fact, there is reason to believe that most charity work is done by atheists -not theists![/b]

Patently false, the vast majority of people on the planet are theist, so a representative cross sample of charity workers would certainly prove that the majority of charity is done by theists. I finds it hard to believe that the small (maybe 10😵 %'age of the population that are non theists are doing the majority of charity.

Originally posted by duecer
Patently false, the vast majority of people on the planet are theist, so a representative cross sample of charity workers would certainly prove that the majority of charity is done by theists. I finds it hard to believe that the small (maybe 10😵 %'age of the population that are non theists are doing the majority of charity.

Sorry about that -that was a misprint on my part: what I meant to say: “there is reason to believe that if your are an atheist then you are more likely to do charity work than if you are a theist”

There was a website mentioned in one of the other threads earlier that statistically showed this to be true but I don’t remember which thread or website so can somebody please give a reminder of it here?

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Most work is done by theists.

Most crime is committed by theists.

All true. In fact, theists get more business done by 9 AM than most atheists do all day. So why not be a theist?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
[b]…Would men be free to make good/bad choices?…

No, because there is no excuse for this “god“ to allow “bad” choices when giving us freedom to make choices!

Why would an all powerful but kind god be either unable or unwilling to so arrange the world so that every person is given many choices but those choices are all good choices that don’t lead to any suffering or potential suffering?[/b]

Why would an all powerful but kind god be either unable or unwilling to so arrange the world so that every person is given many choices but those choices are all good choices that don’t lead to any suffering or potential suffering?------------hamilton-----------------------------

Because he wanted a world with real people who made real choices between good and bad and knew the difference between the two. He wanted a world where real choices were made and people who loved and chose love over hate. Your world sounds so sanitised and unreal to me. If someone is kind to me it means a lot to me because I know that they are capable of being unkind. If someone loves me or does a good deed out of real choice it means something.

A world full of people who only do good and are only kind because they have to be and cannot choose otherwise , may contain less suffering but it would also be less human and less real.

If you know your films you will remember the scene from invasion of the body snatchers where Donald sutherland is trying to resist being turned into a vegetable because although he is being told he will be happier that way he prefers his flawed humanity because it's the only way real love can be allowed to flourish.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Why would an all powerful but kind god be either unable or unwilling to so arrange the world so that every person is given many choices but those choices are all good choices that don’t lead to any suffering or potential suffering?------------hamilton-----------------------------

Because he wanted a world with real people who made real choices betwe ...[text shortened]... he prefers his flawed humanity because it's the only way real love can be allowed to flourish.

…Because he wanted a world with real people who made real choices between good and bad and knew the difference between the two…

But why would he want us to have choices between good and bad RATHER than choices between various good actions if he is so kind? And if he is all-powerful and if he really wants as to knew the difference between “good” and “bad” then why cannot he simply give a few HARMLESS demonstration that don’t cause any lasting or significant suffering just so we comprehend the difference? Or, even better, just feed this knowledge of the difference directly into our brains without causing any suffering!

…A world full of people who only do good and are only kind because they have to be and cannot choose otherwise ..…

Why can’t a kind and all-powerful god simply make everybody inevitably CHOOSE to be kind because it is in their nature to be kind and so they WANT to be kind?
So what if their nature makes them unable to choose otherwise -that’s a good thing. Just imagine what a wonderful world we would live in if everybody was bent on helping everybody: no more poverty; no crime; no wars etc.

…If someone loves me or does a good deed out of real CHIOCE it means something….

I have mentioned this before but generally we don’t “choose” who we love because what makes us love does not usually come from the rational mind.

…If you know your films you will remember the scene from invasion of the body snatchers where Donald sutherland is trying to resist being turned into a vegetable because although he is being told he will be happier that way he prefers his flawed humanity because it's the only way real love can be allowed to flourish...…

A vegetable feels no love, happiness etc so obviously I wouldn’t want to become a “body snatcher”. But I also wouldn’t ever want the “flaws” in my humanity because my “flaws” generally make me less happy -not more happy! Love and happiness doesn’t come from “flaws” as you suggest here, it comes from the part of the brain called the limbic system and its interaction with certain other parts of the brain.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
[b]…Because he wanted a world with real people who made real choices between good and bad and knew the difference between the two…

But why would he want us to have choices between good and bad RATHER than choices between various good actions if he is so kind? And if he is all-powerful and if he really wants as to knew the difference between “g ...[text shortened]... f the brain called the limbic system and its interaction with certain other parts of the brain.[/b]

I have mentioned this before but generally we don’t “choose” who we love because what makes us love does not usually come from the rational mind.----hamilton-------------------

We do not choose our feelings but love is more than just a feeling. Love is an act of choice also. If we only behaved lovingly towards others when we "felt" like it then it would be a pretty poor show. Love is tougher than that. We can choose to love even when its very hard to do so. It's the kind of love Christ had in mind when he spoke about loving our enemies.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
[b]…Because he wanted a world with real people who made real choices between good and bad and knew the difference between the two…

But why would he want us to have choices between good and bad RATHER than choices between various good actions if he is so kind? And if he is all-powerful and if he really wants as to knew the difference between “g ...[text shortened]... f the brain called the limbic system and its interaction with certain other parts of the brain.[/b]

But why would he want us to have choices between good and bad RATHER than choices between various good actions if he is so kind? And if he is all-powerful and if he really wants as to knew the difference between “good” and “bad” then why cannot he simply give a few HARMLESS demonstration that don’t cause any lasting or significant suffering just so we comprehend the difference? Or, even better, just feed this knowledge of the difference directly into our brains without causing any suffering! --------------hamilton---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


As you well know there are certain things that cannot be learned in the way you suggest. One has to EXPERIENCE the difference and FEEL the tension between the good and bad choice. To be a moral sentient being requires knowledge of a different quality. The kind of freedom you suggest is only partial freedom whereas God intended to go the whole way , even to the extent that we have the ability to choose against him.

The thinking is that if one does not have the ability to choose against God (eg badness) then what does it really mean to be good? One could create a robot that only made good choices , and even if you gave it a range of good choices to choose from , would all those good choices be equally good ? Or would some be less good than others? If so then there would be a requirement to make a moral choice to choose the greater good rather than the lesser good. On what basis would one make that decision?

It's like many things in life. You don't really appreciate summer without the winter , you don't savour victory without tasting defeat. Darkness cannot exist without the presence of light. Courage can only exist truely if fear is present. Love involves the risk of getting hurt or rejected. Faith needs doubt to exist.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
[b]…Because he wanted a world with real people who made real choices between good and bad and knew the difference between the two…

But why would he want us to have choices between good and bad RATHER than choices between various good actions if he is so kind? And if he is all-powerful and if he really wants as to knew the difference between “g ...[text shortened]... f the brain called the limbic system and its interaction with certain other parts of the brain.[/b]

A vegetable feels no love, happiness etc so obviously I wouldn’t want to become a “body snatcher”. But I also wouldn’t ever want the “flaws” in my humanity because my “flaws” generally make me less happy -not more happy! Love and happiness doesn’t come from “flaws” as you suggest here, it comes from the part of the brain called the limbic system and its interaction with certain other parts of the brain.
---------------hamilton--------------------------------

I think you missed the point , either that or you didn't see the film or know the scene. In it , sutherland is offered and is being forced to become the "vegetable" or to have his body replicated . The offer of painless happiness and total peace and harmony. The proposition from leonard Nimoy is one of serenity , but suthrland just says "you're killing me!" - I don't think he meant his body (because his body would be Ok ) or his memories , he meant he was losing something essentially human about himself. The ability to love , risk , feel hurt and joy , to be human , to be sentient.

If you don't get this now I will be wondering whether you have been snatched yourself. LOL