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Originally posted by jaywill“…Further more, your moral outrage at the death of "innocent children" assume a standard of morality….”
While it may be difficult to see why Adam was allowed to make a decision which brought Man out of a Paradise Situation into a world of sin, death, unbelief, rebellion, desease, and other calamities of the "curse" which resulted in Adam's disobedience, we do, nonetheless see God moving in the direction of restoring His creation to a Paradise.
Read about t will be richly rewarded for giving your heart to Christ for the sake of children.
Wrong! I don’t have “moral outrage”, I have “emotional outrage”. That’s because I don’t believe there is such thing as “moral”.
“… If you have an Ultimate Standard of Morality, we well might call that "God" which would of course defeat your atheistic concept of there being none....”
Even if I had a “morality“ (which I don’t), that makes no sense. No mater how good a persons “morality” is generally regarded to be, why arbitrarily call it by the word “god”?
“…If you wish to blame God then you have given up your cherished atheism for the opportunity to blame the God who does exist. ….”
Firstly, how can I “blame God” when I don’t believe god exist?
Secondly, I do not (as you said) “cherish” my atheism. How can I “cherish” a belief when I do not “choose” my beliefs. I do not “cherish” my belief that 1+1=2 because I don’t “choose” to believe that.
“…The best possible thing you personally could do for the suffering children of the world is to turn YOUR life over to Jesus Christ. Then they will have the hope and peace of seeing Christ's goodness in your life. ….”
Nop. That wont work. If I wanted to help suffering children, then the best way to do that is to give to charity (which I have done) and to give practical help to them (which I am yet to do).
Originally posted by KellyJayThere is a tremendous amount of suffering that is NOT chosen. Do you believe that a three year old with a brain tumor somehow chose that to happen. Or that his/her parents did something to cause that?
The world is what we make it for the most part, crimes against people
are only done when we act against one another. Things like sickness
or diseases are in large part due to other actions that have been
made by us, for example STD would pretty much go away if we really
did live according to scripture and sleep with the 'one' person we were
married too ...[text shortened]... is wrong, that too is on us and we
are the cause of those types of results as well.
Kelly
I think Job tells us that "man is born to suffer just as surely as the sparks fly upward."
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Originally posted by KellyJay“…The world is what we make it for the most part ….”
The world is what we make it for the most part, crimes against people
are only done when we act against one another. Things like sickness
or diseases are in large part due to other actions that have been
made by us, for example STD would pretty much go away if we really
did live according to scripture and sleep with the 'one' person we were
married too is wrong, that too is on us and we
are the cause of those types of results as well.
Kelly
Agreed. But what about the part that we didn’t make? Innocent children sometimes suffer not because anything us humans have done wrong and the suffering of those children too young to know what “faith” even is (let alone have “faith&rdquo😉 and that suffer as a result of nobodies fault and suffer alone are not testing anybodies “faith” are they! So why would a good “god” (assuming a “god” exists) allow that if he isn’t testing our “faith“?
Originally posted by kirksey957We live in a cursed world, those things do not come without cause,
There is a tremendous amount of suffering that is NOT chosen. Do you believe that a three year old with a brain tumor somehow chose that to happen. Or that his/her parents did something to cause that?
I think Job tells us that "man is born to suffer just as surely as the sparks fly upward."
and we may not always know what the cause is or when it occured.
We do know that if everything goes like it should, those things do
not happen, if you have an issue with the term, "goes like it should"
I suggest than you don't have clue what is right or wrong, good or
bad, and if that is true nothing is really good or bad even tumors
in little kids.
Kelly
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonListen, I have seen children suffer up close and personal, and I do not
[b]“…The world is what we make it for the most part ….”
Agreed. But what about the part that we didn’t make? Innocent children sometimes suffer not because anything us humans have done wrong and the suffering of those children too young to know what “faith” even is (let alone have “faith&rdquo😉 and that suffer as a result of nobodies fault and suf ...[text shortened]... So why would a good “god” (assuming a “god” exists) allow that if he isn’t testing our “faith“?[/b]
wish that on anyone. I do believe this life is short, it is temporary, and
the suffering done here will not last, but what is to come will last, and
will not stop. I do not know why, if I did I'd tell you. I do know that
that in the middle of it all, no matter how bad it gets, God the one
everyone seems to blame for all of this will see us through as He did
us. That will not stop our pain and suffering, but it does strenghten
us through it, since everyone one of us is promised that in this life
time those things will occur, and that God will not leave us as we go
through that too.
Kelly
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonSo you do not believe in good or bad, right or wrong, and if that is
[b]“…Further more, your moral outrage at the death of "innocent children" assume a standard of morality….”
Wrong! I don’t have “moral outrage”, I have “emotional outrage”. That’s because I don’t believe there is such thing as “moral”.
“… If you have an Ultimate Standard of Morality, we well might call that "God" which would of course d ...[text shortened]... e to charity (which I have done) and to give practical help to them (which I am yet to do).
the case why worry about suffering as if that were a bad or wrong
thing?
Kelly
- Joined
- 07 Jan 08
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Originally posted by jaywillI could not disagree more stridently against this notion of suffering and you'd never find me preaching it, either.
Suffering is used by God to wrought Christ into them.
Suffering is used by God to work Himself into people.
Suffering is used by God to drive you out of the Adamic nature into the divine nature.
Suffering is used by God to get you to trust the God of resurrection.
Suffering is used by God to conform people to the image of Christ Who has ...[text shortened]... suffering. It comes. Turn your eyes to Jesus and enjoy Him in all situations and circumstances.
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Originally posted by jaywillGod is the ultimate torturer.
Suffering is used by God to wrought Christ into them.
Suffering is used by God to work Himself into people.
Suffering is used by God to drive you out of the Adamic nature into the divine nature.
Suffering is used by God to get you to trust the God of resurrection.
Suffering is used by God to conform people to the image of Christ Who has and can p ...[text shortened]... le to enjoy God Himself in the midst of thier suffering and therefby overcoming their suffering.
Apparently he doesn't have any other way of persuading people into heaven. If I didn't know better, I would think that we are being hoodwinked and that the red guy with horns who welcomes all with open arms might in fact be the genuine one.
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In fact, if God uses suffering in so many inventive ways, and Hell is all about suffering, then maybe the Devil is actually doing the same as God. How would we know?
Originally posted by jaywillerrrrm no. i ask you again, what kind of a sadist are you worshiping?
Suffering is used by God to wrought Christ into them.
Suffering is used by God to work Himself into people.
Suffering is used by God to drive you out of the Adamic nature into the divine nature.
Suffering is used by God to get you to trust the God of resurrection.
Suffering is used by God to conform people to the image of Christ Who has ...[text shortened]... suffering. It comes. Turn your eyes to Jesus and enjoy Him in all situations and circumstances.
Originally posted by KellyJay…I do not know why, if I did I'd tell you….
Listen, I have seen children suffer up close and personal, and I do not
wish that on anyone. I do believe this life is short, it is temporary, and
the suffering done here will not last, but what is to come will last, and
will not stop. I do not know why, if I did I'd tell you. I do know that
that in the middle of it all, no matter how bad it gets, God t ...[text shortened]... time those things will occur, and that God will not leave us as we go
through that too.
Kelly
I can tell you why for you: there is no god. That is the simplest hypothesis that explains why.
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonThere is no God does not touch that question, there is sin is the
[b]…I do not know why, if I did I'd tell you….
I can tell you why for you: there is no god. That is the simplest hypothesis that explains why.[/b]
answer to the question if you just want a high level answer that does
not really address why, but give some simple reason for it.
Kelly
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Originally posted by jaywillWhat happened to free will?
Suffering is used by God to wrought Christ into them.
Suffering is used by God to work Himself into people.
Suffering is used by God to drive you out of the Adamic nature into the divine nature.
Suffering is used by God to get you to trust the God of resurrection.
Suffering is used by God to conform people to the image of Christ Who has suffering. It comes. Turn your eyes to Jesus and enjoy Him in all situations and circumstances.
I agree with one of your ideas; that suffering leads people to religion. When I was really, really depressed - girlfriend dumped me and I was having other problems as well - I actually considered hanging out with the local "God Squad" and becoming Christian, not because I believed the religion, but because I needed RELIEF and Christians promise mental strength, a feeling of being loved etc.
I chose Zoloft, marijuana and hard work to solve my life problems instead. My life took off from there. Now I'm doing quite well 🙂 I don't need Zoloft any more.
This Christian connection to suffering reminds me of the book 1984 😕. Hurt people enough, assert certain beliefs as providing release from the pain - you get results. It's called brainwashing.
This is the same way you train suicide bombers. Find people who have suffered, are weak, frustrated, powerless and angry, and offer them religious meaning, influence, social encouragement, a way to go out in a blaze of glory with incredible sex just around the corner - the same sex that the powers that be denied you in life...