@medullah saidToday is Fathers Day. Lighten up. Give thanks to God. Have a few drinks. Spend time with the family. Entertain strangers, feed the poor. Do this alone and you are doing well
It's not the finished work of Christ that I have doubts over, not for one second.
So in response to that last question I'm trying to work it out. At the moment tighten up on the bad habits (too much alcohol in my case) and other little things; try and give others more thought and round off a few burrs. I'm in watchman mode at the moment, as anyone familiar with the scrip ...[text shortened]... exchange I was convinced we were entering Revelation Ch 13. I think that we are around verse 14 now.
I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life. And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God. (Ecclesiastes 3:12-13 KJV)
The Satanic bible twisters will get their punishment.
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Medullah,
For your sake I should respond to these accusations from Rajk999.
Did Jesus tell anyone about believing in any finished work? No. So dont allow church Christians and even Paul to influence you [if you believe in Christ] to believe and do something else.
Rajk999 is telling you to ignore not only Christ but Christ speaking in the Apostle Paul who wrote 13 of the 27 books of the New Testament.
There IS an aspect of Christ's work which He finished. He told us so Himself.
"I have glorified You on earth, FINISHING the work which You have given Me to do." (John 17:4)
He finished the work of living living on earth a perfect life.
He did this that He might be a perfect propitiatory offering for our Justification.
He did this also that when He comes into us as the Holy Spirit His perfection is available to us to tap into as we walk in Him.
In John 19:30 He uttered just before He expired - "It is finished"
"Then when Jesus had taken the vinegar, He said, It is finished! And He bowed His head and delivered up His spirit." (John 19:30)
Rajk999 coming here teaching there is no finished work of Christ is a doctrine of demons. Either he is terribly deceived or knows this is wrong and is lying.
In Luke 24 AFTER His resurrection He speaks of His accomplishing this work of redemption also.
"And He said to them, Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day, And that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things." (Luke 24:46-48)
@sonship saidI don't see a problem Son, the text is quite clear in my mind and Perish means death.
@medullah
The pieces to the puzzle I find I submit to the questioning of a few others here.
If everyone is in theory going to get a resurrection what incentive would there be to be obedient? How back are you going to go with this resurrection? Would those that perished in Sodom be getting a resurrection even though it was a divine judgement?
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@medullah saidSonship is a good poster to start ignoring. Im sure you see there what he did with what I said. Anyway here is something arising from your comment re Sodom, and the more open-minded people read the bible, the more they drift away from the typical churches that ignore passages like these.
I don't see a problem Son, the text is quite clear in my mind and Perish means death.
If everyone is in theory going to get a resurrection what incentive would there be to be obedient? How back are you going to go with this resurrection? Would those that perished in Sodom be getting a resurrection even though it was a divine judgement?
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(1 Peter 3:18-20 KJV)
Peter is saying - Jesus died and through his Spirit went to preach to those who were disobedient before the flood. Obviously these are dead people. Jesus here is giving them an opportunity to repent. These then will be resurrected at the appropriate time.
This passage raises all kinds of questions, but the dead cannot be written off by saying they did not know Christ and therefore they will be doomed or cast into the lake of fire. Those who died in Sodom may very well be in the same category.
@medullah saidEnoch is a good book to read. So is the Gospel of Thomas. Around 12 books were removed from the Septuagint. Just read them yourself and you will see times when people tell you something and because they read only Paul's teachings their understanding is limited. Makes you laugh. This thread and the one who started it is a good example of how a petty mind struggles with basic concepts.
@sonship
Thank you for your concern Son, but I'm pretty strong in my own beliefs. I believe in all of the bible, but am very curious about the books that were taken out, like Enoch?
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@Rajk999
Not a word was said to refute "It is finished" uttered by Jesus.
Notice, Rajk999 said absolutely NOTHING to redeem himself from propagating the error that there is no finished work of Christ in the Bible.
He shrugs and just levels another accusation.
Who is the one who should be ignored on this point?
@rajk999 saidWere they the dead Raj, or were they the dematerialized fallen Angels?
This passage raises all kinds of questions, but the dead cannot be written off by saying they did not know Christ and therefore they will be doomed or cast into the lake of fire. Those who died in Sodom may very well be in the same category.
@rajk999 saidI've obtained (not read) Enoch, I'll look out for St Thomas. I'm under the impression something like 40+ books were removed?
Enoch is a good book to read. So is the Gospel of Thomas. Around 12 books were removed from the Septuagint. Just read them yourself and you will see times when people tell you something and because they read only Paul's teachings their understanding is limited. Makes you laugh. This thread and the one who started it is a good example of how a petty mind struggles with basic concepts.
@medullah saidThe fallen angels is another [related] story and not part of the flood. They were described in detail by Enoch [Genesis as well] and they were those who corrupted mankind who bred the daughters of Adam and produced giants. They were the ones who caused much evil to fill the earth hence Gods decision to destroy mankind.
Were they the dead Raj, or were they the dematerialized fallen Angels?
The reference in Peter is about the normal people in the time of the flood who died. Is the dead part confusing? Jesus did explain in words and by illustration that the body goes to the grave and the soul goes back to God [somewhere, only God knows].
@medullah saidActually I think 12 or so were removed from the Septuagint which is the original Greek bible used by the Apostles. Enoch was not one of those. Enoch, was regarded as one of the older prophets and both Paul and Jude made reference to him. His prophecies were included as part of the Jewish literature and should not be sidelined which churches did.
I've obtained (not read) Enoch, I'll look out for St Thomas. I'm under the impression something like 40+ books were removed?
Here is a comprehensive list of some of the books in Jewish literature, some of which are considered to the inspired works but not included in the Greek bible or the Torah.
https://catholic-resources.org/Bible/Non-Canonical.htm
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@medullah
I would ask a second time, not to be a nuisance, but
Who told you the apocryphal book of Enoch was taken out of the Bible?
If you want to study how the canon of the Old and New Testament came to be, I found helpful "A General Introduction To The Bible" by Giesler and Nix.
I believe that God led His people in both canons to recognize authoritative books. This is different from adding or shrinking from an authoritative list.
Let me give you an example., Maybe someday an actual additional letter written by the Apostle Paul may be found. That does not mean that the Holy Spirit will direct the believers to ADD that letter to the New Testament canon.
Can you now tell me who said Enoch was in the canon and dropped? Ie. Taken out of the Bible.
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Peter is saying - Jesus died and through his Spirit went to preach to those who were disobedient before the flood. Obviously these are dead people. Jesus here is giving them an opportunity to repent. These then will be resurrected at the appropriate time.
It is not so obvious that dead people are meant.
Neither is it obvious that what Jesus did was to furnish those whom He
proclaimed His message to was to give them opportunity to repent.
Proclamation may not be preaching for the purpose of their repentance.
Second Peter 2:4 speaks of particularly heinous angels whose guilt was so serious that the are only kept in gloomy pits to await judgment.
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned but delivered them to gloomy pits, having cast them down to Tartarus, THEY BEING KEPT FOR JUDGMENT." (2 Pet. 2:4) [My bolding]
It could be that whatever time these spirits had for repentance was long ago neglected. They only await execution.
The footnote in the Recovery Version (sorry, I'm not ashamed of the RcV), says about " Christ . . . being put to death in the flesh, but on the other, made alive in Spirit; In which also He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, Who had formerly disobeyed when the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared . . . " (See 1 Pet. 3:18-20)
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"Not to preach the good news but to proclaim the victory achieved by God, that is, that through Christ's death on the cross God destroyed Satan and his power of darkness (Heb. 2:14, Col. 2:15).
Throughout the centuries great teachers of different schools have had varying interpretations concerning spirits in prison. The most acceptable according to the Scriptures is as follows: the spirits here refer not to the disembodied spirits of dead human beings held in Hades but to the angels (angels are spirits - Heb. 1:14) who fell through disobedience at Noah's time (v. 20) . . . and are imprisoned
in pits of gloom, awaiting the judgment of the great day (Pet. 2:4-5; Jude 6). After His death in the flesh, Christ in His living Spirit as His divinity went (probably to the abyss - Rom. 10:7) to these rebellious angels to proclaim, perhaps, God's victory, accomplished through his incarnation in Christ and Christ's death in the flesh, over Satan's scheme to derange the divine plan.
"spirits in prison"
[prison] Referring to Tartarus, the deep and gloomy pits (2 Pet. 2:4 and Jude 6), where the fallen angels are kept.."
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I agree that this is the best interpretation. Christ did not preach to these particularly terrible angels but to PROCLAIM their defeat and the defeat of their leader Satan.