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A man whose is sinking in an ocean of false doctrines leading to damnation, is here obsessed with trivialities about what happens to the Devil and his angels.
Yea, Yea Rajk999!! You're very eloquent. Very expressive.
The only problem is that you don't seem to have the ability to take on some of the arguments head on with the kind of point by point rebuttal that is needed to falsify them.
I think some people have begun to see through this inability.
You brush of important points like Christ saying "It is finished" aside and just add on some more eloquent words about what you think of me.
I hit the bull's eye, you ignore it, you add an additional grumpy denunciation of me personally.
Additional foam in the mouth and louder decibel insults accomplish NOTHING for you when I have actual points that you CANNOT refute.
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@sonship saidWrong on every count. You cannot even see what is going on around you. How can you be so blind. Eloquent and expressive? Wrong. What I do is simply repeat the teachings of Christ. I quote them exactly, I make no interpretation, I do not try to twist the meaning of a word to force it to mean something else, like what you are trying in vain to do here with the word 'perish'.
@Rajk999A man whose is sinking in an ocean of false doctrines leading to damnation, is here obsessed with trivialities about what happens to the Devil and his angels.
Yea, Yea Rajk999!! You're very eloquent. Very expressive.
I dont need to prove or 'take on',' head on' your nonsense. Your arguments fall away as a natural consequence of being at odds with the teachings of Christ. Which people you think have begun to see thorough my inability to do whatever it is you are talking about. Who?
As for this issue, you hit no bullseye.. This matter has been discussed before and I can remember even atheists saying why it is that the Devil and his angels [basically immortal beings] are not humans, and therefore will be affected differently in the lake of fire, compared to humans who are mortal flesh and blood.
You are just a dunce beyond belief chasing vainly after what you think is a loophole in the word 'perish', which will allow you to prove that evil sinful Christians will not perish permanently but will die temporarily but will still be given eternal life. [Imagine even vivify had to point out to you that all of the disciples of Christ died a natural death so persih cannot just mean normal death]. You are a sack of s$hitt sonship, an evil man, promoting garbage, and trying to convince people to ignore the teachings of Christ that lead to eternal life in the Kingdom of God and instead, follow you on your path to annihilation, because that is what your end is, unless you change your ways and your doctrine and follow Christ.
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. I quote them exactly, I make no interpretation, I do not try to twist the meaning of a word to force it to mean something else, like what you are trying in vain to do here with the word 'perish'.
I started this thread to reason step by step in a perfectly rationale way, WHAT could be meant in John 3:16 by "perish"?
I have come to this verse unloading any preconceptions and ASKING people to reason along as we read John to figure out what is not explicitly told us in that verse.
Don't brag to me that you only quote the Bible.
You interpret just as much as anyone else.
Because your AGENDA is damaged by some very clear places in the New Testament you have to resort to things like:
Denounce Paul
Warn people not to be influenced by the apostle Paul.
Look the other way on many things said by Jesus.
Brag that you're practically the last Christian on earth to obey Jesus.
Ignore and insult instead of show WHY a certain analysis is wrong.
Cry "Witness Lee!" hoping to garner some sympathy from cult fighters.
Don't tell me that you only quote Scripture and don't interpret because you're mistaking yourself for the person you'd like to think you are.
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I dont need to prove or 'take on',' head on' your nonsense.
Yes, you "don't need to" because you CANNOT.
You say no finished work of Christ in the Bible?
Get behind me.
"I . . . finishing the work which You have given Me that I should do." (John 17:4)
Get behind me Satan. The Lord rebuke you Satan.
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@rajk999 saidPitiful.
Enoch is a good book to read. So is the Gospel of Thomas. Around 12 books were removed from the Septuagint. Just read them yourself and you will see times when people tell you something and because they read only Paul's teachings their understanding is limited. Makes you laugh. This thread and the one who started it is a good example of how a petty mind struggles with basic concepts.
Good to read the Gospel of Thomas?
I don't have TIME to read Enoch or the Gospel of Thomas for barely having enough time to explore the exhaustless gold mine of the canonical books.
I BARELY have time to plumb "the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel" (Eph. 3:8)
Life is short enough here to have time to gain Christ in sanctification to go chasing down some spurious apocryphal rabbit holes like the Gospel of Thomas.
Get a copy of "Dethroning Jesus: Exposing Popular Cultures Quest to Unseat the Biblical Christ" by Bock and Wallace
https://www.amazon.com/Dethroning-Jesus-Exposing-Cultures-Biblical/dp/078529785
I can see why you're so confused.
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@medullah saidHe believes 'perish' means punished but still given 'eternal life'. This is the essence of the 'once saved always saved doctrine promoted by sonship and several others here. They say they are saved, they have eternal life and its permanent.
It's funny, all the tangents that you can go off to from a simple debate around the meaning of the word "Perish".
Anyway, I don see how when you are told that you will Perish it means that you can get a resurrection, sorry Son.
So he is really trying to convince himself that he is correct. But its really a ridiculous thing to believe.
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It's funny, all the tangents that you can go off to from a simple debate around the meaning of the word "Perish".
Anyway, I don see how when you are told that you will Perish it means that you can get a resurrection, sorry Son.
Sigh. Now here I was thinking you were somewhat more level headed than Rajk999. I hope you are not getting all your information on where I stand from Rajk999.
I approached this thread as a honest questioner, dropping preconceptions and even asking for help to answer the OP's question. Not that it was easy to drop preconceptions. After all I have been studying for a long time. But I tried.
I felt that I owed it to some posters to try come at it in this way.
"Okay, if there is no eternal punishment then show me that "perish" in John 3:16 could be assertained to mean something else, like just physically expire. "
What is your verdict on the question?
Is your conclusion - YES. "Perish" can only mean simply to DIE in John's Gospel.
Is that where you are?
@sonship saidThis is balderdash, sonship. And you know it. You are sounding like a retail politician.
I approached this thread as a honest questioner, dropping preconceptions and even asking for help to answer the OP's question. Not that it was easy to drop preconceptions. After all I have been studying for a long time. But I tried.
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@divegeester
I said in the OP that my interpretations of the New Testament were not infallible.
Considering some criticisms here on the forum I have recently come to this verse seriously asking myself this question. Why couldn't Jesus have simply meant here "would not perish" means "would not DIE" ?
[My interpretations of the NT are not infallible.]
I said it is difficult to drop much pre-conceived notions when you come to some things. Admitting that it is difficult, I said I tried.
I pretty much restricted my step by step reasoning to John's Gospel. But eventually a person like myself (who believes the whole Bible) has to enlarge his consideration to other parts of the Bible.
"would not perish but have eternal life" then I come with a clean slate asking "Now what would this mean if I came to it having heard virtually nothing? Let me first look for clues in the same chapter, in the same book. Now let me expand my search to see if other places shine light on it."
By the way, preconceived notions, may possibly be validly derived.
Preconceived does not automatically mean wrong.
So it is not so simple.
Some may say "Well, sonship we know you're not likely to change your deep seated interpretations you've had about it."
Possibly that's true.
@sonship saidRE: "Don't tell me that you only quote Scripture and don't interpret because you're mistaking yourself for the person you'd like to think you are."
@Rajk999. I quote them exactly, I make no interpretation, I do not try to twist the meaning of a word to force it to mean something else, like what you are trying in vain to do here with the word 'perish'.
I started this thread to reason step by step in a perfectly rationale way, WHAT could be meant in John 3:16 by "perish"?
I hav ...[text shortened]... re and don't interpret because you're mistaking yourself for the person you'd like to think you are.
Mm. My impression is that you believe yourself to be some kind of Christian teacher and Bible-discussion leader, but unfortunately it's clear just how tissue-thin is your veneer of religiosity.
To hold court in an egocentric and falsely "other-serving" way is one thing.
For the ego to be transformed by Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit is quite another.