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@medullah saidHe is a desperate bible twister. He needs to change the meaning of the word 'perish' to something other than damnation. Remember he is a OSAS Christian. They believe that they can live in sin, disobey the commandments, and still get eternal life, so perish is not really perish. They will be punished temporarily, he believes, but still get eternal life. It is verses like these that have them up a gum tree.
@sonship
OK bite size pieces, why are you looking to interpret this outside of the traditional meaning. to what purpose?
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-Removed-The answer is nothing. There is nothing that needs to be done. It is the gift of God. It is not of works, lest anyone should boast. God, gave his son Jesus to die for the sins of world. All the world is saved by the death of Christ.
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29 KJV)
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (1 John 2:2-3 KJV)
But it is only those who keep the commandments who get eternal life and inherit the Kingdom Of God, as stated by Christ and all the Apostles. Evildoers will be cast out.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21 KJV)
@sonship saidIt seems that in Greek the word behind "perish" means "to destroy completely":
Could "perish" in John 3:16 simply mean physically expire, die, become deceased?
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone who believes into Him would not perish, but would have eternal life."
Considering some criticisms here on the forum I have recently come to this verse seriously asking myself this question. Why ...[text shortened]... "would not perish"[/b] means "would not DIE" ?
[My interpretations of the NT are not infallible.]
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-16.htm
Unfortunately, even without that and based on the construction of the verse, John's conception of God seems to be of a petty one Whose vaunted love is conditional.
But of course we should allow that John might have been mistaken either in the conception or in the presentation of his view of God.
Which of course would still not be God Itself.
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Some other factors to consider are that the Arcturian Spider Crystals are inherently immortal, and the pan-cosmic Quantum Futon Club also offers eternal life to all sentient species for a reasonable fixed price without any emotional games involved.*
*No, I don't get any kickback from that -- please notice the lack of an affiliate link.
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OK bite size pieces, why are you looking to interpret this outside of the traditional meaning. to what purpose?
I am not looking for anything novel or non-traditional just for its own sake.
I asking myself - "If I was simply reading this gospel of John how would I reasonably understand the things involved in perishing" ?
I think it is a fair question to a couple of posters who argue that to perish cannot mean conscious endless punishment. What COULD I ascertain what Jesus had in mind?
I explore two possibilities by reading MORE in the very same gospel of John.
There may be more.
1.) To perish involves resurrection to judgment (?) whatever that judgment would be. (John 5:28,29)
2.) To perish involves having the wrath of God abide on you, however that may be expressed. (John 3:36).
I am not the only one reasoning here.
I start my search in the same book John.
To solve this problem I think it is legitimate to also go outside of John latter to see if we can find out.
The pieces to the puzzle I find I submit to the questioning of a few others here.
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I think it's time we start treating religious delusions as mental disorders, whether voluntary or involuntary, and no matter what traditional texts are involved.
How in the world am I suppose to get much benefit from that statement?
That's just a blanket denunciation of taking anything in the New Testament as a matter of mental illness. Other than a skeptic's broad feel good generalization I see no other value in that condemnation.
Its something I would expect to hear in perhaps Communist China or the old Soviet Union or some other atheist dystopia. Besides man will worship something or somebody. Jesus Christ is worthy of such devotion.
I take it that with that statement you are finished with this discussion as you find it damaging to your mental health?
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Some other factors to consider are that the Arcturian Spider Crystals are inherently immortal, and the pan-cosmic Quantum Futon Club also offers eternal life to all sentient species for a reasonable fixed price without any emotional games involved.*
*No, I don't get any kickback from that -- please notice the lack of an affiliate link.
Was this outburst an indication of pristine sober minded mental health?
@sonship saidAnd yet it is you who appears to be trying to discredit or silence Kevin Eleven by comparing the exercise of his freedoms of thought and speech to brutal, mass murdering dictatorships.
Its something I would expect to hear in perhaps Communist China or the old Soviet Union or some other atheist dystopia. Besides man will worship something or somebody. Jesus Christ is worthy of such devotion.
-Removed-It's not the finished work of Christ that I have doubts over, not for one second.
So in response to that last question I'm trying to work it out. At the moment tighten up on the bad habits (too much alcohol in my case) and other little things; try and give others more thought and round off a few burrs. I'm in watchman mode at the moment, as anyone familiar with the scriptures and understands them should be.
When you and I had our first ever exchange I was convinced we were entering Revelation Ch 13. I think that we are around verse 14 now.
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@medullah saidYou sound like you are struggling a bit with a few things so allow me to say something about that.
It's not the finished work of Christ that I have doubts over, not for one second.
So in response to that last question I'm trying to work it out. At the moment tighten up on the bad habits (too much alcohol in my case) and other little things; try and give others more thought and round off a few burrs. I'm in watchman mode at the moment, as anyone familiar with the scrip ...[text shortened]... exchange I was convinced we were entering Revelation Ch 13. I think that we are around verse 14 now.
Did Jesus tell anyone about believing in any finished work? No. So dont allow church Christians and even Paul to influence you [if you believe in Christ] to believe and do something else. Put Christ first, and leave the church Christians to sort out their messy doctrine. Jesus words are simple:
- Believe in God, and love God [I presume you do]
- Love your neighbour as yourself [ I presume you try to do this as well]
According to Christ, you are one of his sheep. Jesus is with you. A good place to be. Dont get derailed with sonship's nonsense. Sonship is trying desperately to twist and change the words of Christ, something you are seeing clearly for yourself. He is in a very bad place, and the fact that a man does that, means God / Christ cannot possibly be with him. And anyone who follows sonship will go down with him.
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My opinion.
The Hebrew word apollymi is listed in Strong's as G622. It is translated 33 times in the KJV as "perish", but 26 times as "destroy", as in "be destroyed".
In John 3:16, my opinion is that it means "eternal destruction". Liljo's post talks about this. Obviously it means more than just "die", since many have died since then, including apostles, and it seems they would be some of the first in line for the Kingdom of God.
This fully aligns with my belief that there is no eternal torture after death. After Judgement, souls not deemed worthy are simply snuffed out in the Lake of Fire. AKA "eternal destruction", with no possibility of parole, as it were.
In this, at least, Liljo and I seem to agree. I've presented most of what he covers in his post before as reasoning behind my belief.
Thankyou again Suzianne.
If you would tell me how you think about this.
A legion of demonic spirits reacted to Jesus coming to cast them out of a man.
"And behold, they cried out, saying, What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Have You come here before the time to torment us? " (Matt. 8:29)
I notice that these evil spirits didn't ask if Christ came there before the time to make them non-existent or be "gone" in the sense of existing at all. But they asked about Christ coming pre-maturely to torment them.
Would you have any thoughts on why they asked in that manner? - ". . . You, Son of God . . . Have You come here before the time to torment us?"