Creation Answer Book

Originally posted by Barts
The logic in that post was all by Nicksten, I merely paraphrased and replaced God by FSM. Nice that you see how ridiculous that sounds. Now tell me why it does makes sense if you put God back in ...

Your logic leaves out important information. You make no mention that the
FSM is supernatural and has unlimited power as was done for God or that
any holy book identifies the FSM as having unlimited power as Nicksten does.
So his logic is somewhat better than yours, even though he left out the
point that the Holy Bible also specifically mentions God as being the creator.
Most people know this is in the Holy Bible so that may be why he did not
mention it. Just because the FSM was mentioned in a book does not make
him equal to the FSM you wish to associate with the creation of the
universe, because neither 1 or 2 gives any information about the FSM.

Originally posted by Nicksten
I see where you are going with this. But you still don't understand a thing yet.

Yes the muslims can be correct too. They believe with all their heart and mind their god is creator. You can not argue with them differently and if you do, you get to the argument where we are in this case.

As a Christian, I belief my God to be creator and thus it is a t ...[text shortened]... fference in a laughable religion (FSM) and a religion which actually has value (Christianity).

Yes the muslims can be correct too. They believe with all their heart and mind their god is creator. You can not argue with them differently and if you do, you get to the argument where we are in this case.

So you say it is true that the universe was created by your god, and it is also true that the universe was created by the Muslim god (because muslims believe that and, so you say, the muslims can be correct too), and it is also true that the universe was created by the three main Hindu gods (because that's what Hindus believe), and it is also true that the universe was created by no god at all (because that's what Buddhists believe).

Essentially, whatever is fervently believed by someone somewhere, is actually true?

Could you define the word "true" for me?

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Your logic leaves out important information. You make no mention that the
FSM is supernatural and has unlimited power as was done for God or that
any holy book identifies the FSM as having unlimited power as Nicksten does.
So his logic is somewhat better than yours, even though he left out the
point that the Holy Bible also specifically mentions God as ...[text shortened]... with the creation of the
universe, because neither 1 or 2 gives any information about the FSM.

This is the classic circular argument though.

How do we know about God? It is in the bible.

How do we know the bible is correct? Because it is the words of God.

I can make make up a definition of any supernatural being, write it into a book and claim the same kind of thing.

The only difference is that the bible is old, and the source of it isn't so obvious. Christianity has just put a divine source to it.

Originally posted by Barts
The only "proof" you have is the Bible, a book which contains no proof that God exists, only assertions. It no more convinces me than the gospel of the FSM Penguin mentioned.

A Book which has enough evidence for me to believe in it. I believe, I don't care if you don't.
The same goes for me that evolution has no evidence good enough to proof it. It only has the theory of a bunch of idiots who can on paper say it is possible, but practically impossible, which makes me believe it is the same religion as FSM as they are the same people whom created both these idiotic things.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Your logic leaves out important information. You make no mention that the
FSM is supernatural and has unlimited power as was done for God or that
any holy book identifies the FSM as having unlimited power as Nicksten does.
So his logic is somewhat better than yours, even though he left out the
point that the Holy Bible also specifically mentions God as ...[text shortened]... with the creation of the
universe, because neither 1 or 2 gives any information about the FSM.

Just so you know, I have read that the FSM does claim so (the FSM is supernatural and has unlimited power), but only so for mockery.

I did however mention that the Bible says God created the earth but it wasn't in this thread - but I should have mentioned it anyway. Doesn't harm to read things more than once 🙂

Originally posted by Penguin
[b]Yes I can assert it being true if I believe in it religiously, logically and morally - why the heck not. This is another argument not meant for this thread.

Yes, the Islam religion can claim their god could be creator - Just like I said... God. To them Allah is a god. Get the picture?

So the Muslims are also correct? You state categorically that cannot assert it being true without exposing yourself to ridicule.

--- Penguin.[/b]

Nicksten has apparently missed seeing this post of yours. So let me
answer you by saying that the the Muslims, like anyone else, can claim
whatever they wish. However, they can NOT CORRECTLY claim that
Allah, the god of the Koran or Quran is the Creator God, since that
title belongs only to the God of the Holy Bible.

I did not see anywhere where Nicksten said that anyone could CORRECTLY
claim that a god, other that the One God in the Holy Bible, could be the
Creator. I believe he only said they could claim it, without identifying
if that claim was a legitimate claim.

Originally posted by lausey
This is the classic circular argument though.

How do we know about God? It is in the bible.

How do we know the bible is correct? Because it is the words of God.

I can make make up a definition of any supernatural being, write it into a book and claim the same kind of thing.

The only difference is that the bible is old, and the source of it isn't so obvious. Christianity has just put a divine source to it.

Don't blame the Christians. The Hebrews did it long before there were
any Christians. But the truth written in the Holy Bible is backed up by
other sources, which apparently you have not read about. Maybe you
should get educated before you start spouting off like a teapot.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Nicksten has apparently missed seeing this post of yours. So let me
answer you by saying that the the Muslims, like anyone else, can claim
whatever they wish. However, they can NOT CORRECTLY claim that
Allah, the god of the Koran or Quran is the Creator God, since that
title belongs only to the God of the Holy Bible.

I did not see anywhere where Nic ...[text shortened]... eve he only said they could claim it, without identifying
if that claim was a legitimate claim.

Nicksten has apparently missed seeing this post of yours. So let me
answer you by saying that the the Muslims, like anyone else, can claim
whatever they wish. However, they can NOT CORRECTLY claim that
Allah, the god of the Koran or Quran is the Creator God, since that
title belongs only to the God of the Holy Bible.

Nicksten seems to disagree with you and says that they can be correct in their belief. See below.

I did not see anywhere where Nicksten said that anyone could CORRECTLY
claim that a god, other that the One God in the Holy Bible, could be the
Creator. I believe he only said they could claim it, without identifying
if that claim was a legitimate claim.

So here is the sequence of posts...

Nicksten gave the following responses to 3 questions::

1) If something created the universe then I'm going to call it God
Niksten: Yes because someone that is supernatural and has unlimited power is...... God

2) In the Bible they have an omnipotent being and they call it God
Niksten: Right.

3) They're both called God, they must be the same thing right ?
Niksten: Right.


I then replaced "Bible" and God" with "Koran" and "Allah" and suggested that this was just as valid:


Penguin: So therefore, by your logic, I have just proved that the Muslim god created the universe and you should convert to Islam. And, as has been mentioned, a follower of any religion that has a holy book can use the exact same logic to 'prove' that their religion is the right one and yours is wrong.


Niksten responded with:


Niksten: Yes, the Islam religion can claim their god could be creator - Just like I said... God. To them Allah is a god. Get the picture?


This implies that Niksten accepts that the Muslim position is equally valid. I then asked him to clarify that:


Penguin: So the Muslims are also correct? You state categorically that you know that the only god is the one described by the Bible. Yet you also state that Muslims can correctly claim that the only god is the one described by the Koran.


Niksten then confirmed this for me:

Niksten: Yes the muslims can be correct too.

Note, not "Muslims can believe this" because they are obviously capable of believing whatever they want but that this belief can be correct.

I agree with you that Muslims can believe/claim whatever they want but their belief has no truth value if the only thing they have to back it up is their book. Likewise with Christians.

Why does the 'creator god' title only belong to the god of the Bible? Answer: because that's what you believe. Why do you believe it? Answer: because it's in the Bible. You have no more claim to the truth than the Muslims.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Nicksten has apparently missed seeing this post of yours. So let me
answer you by saying that the the Muslims, like anyone else, can claim
whatever they wish. However, they can NOT CORRECTLY claim that
Allah, the god of the Koran or Quran is the Creator God, since that
title belongs only to the God of the Holy Bible.

I did not see anywhere where Nic ...[text shortened]... eve he only said they could claim it, without identifying
if that claim was a legitimate claim.

Trying to comment and work at the same time. Missing a lot and appreciate you helping me. To clarify yes they can claim so but it won't be true. There is only one God and it is the God of Christianity.

Originally posted by Nicksten
Trying to comment and work at the same time. Missing a lot and appreciate you helping me. To clarify yes they can claim so but it won't be true. There is only one God and it is the God of Christianity.

Ok, so I think you lost track of exactly what was being implied by the questions and answer sequence and you have ended up saying something you don't believe. Fair enough. So both Christians and Muslims (and Sikhs, Hindus, Rastafarians, Zoroastrians, Budhists, etc) can believe:

1) If something created the universe then I'm going to call it #Cause
2) In the #SacredBook they have an deity/process and they call it #Cause
3) They're both called #cause, they must be the same thing right ?

You have still to explain why the Christian belief with #SacredBook=Bible and #Cause=ChristianGod is more correct than the others, bearing in mind that they all have their sacred books that describe a 'creation' event.

Note, I have edited this to replace #Deity with #Cause because Buddhism does not have a deity but it does have a creation story describing a creation process.
--- Penguin.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Don't blame the Christians. The Hebrews did it long before there were
any Christians. But the truth written in the Holy Bible is backed up by
other sources, which apparently you have not read about. Maybe you
should get educated before you start spouting off like a teapot.

Before you get condescending and claim I am uneducated. I have been pointed to thousands of sources which claim to collaborate the bible. All of which were dubious and easy to refute.

Originally posted by lausey
Before you get condescending and claim I am uneducated. I have been pointed to thousands of sources which claim to collaborate the bible. All of which were dubious and easy to refute.

Thousands?

I don't doubt that they are all easy to refute (otherwise there would only be one religion in the world) but did you really check them all?

I think we need to be very careful when we make sweeping statements like this.

On the other hand, if you really have checked them all and have the documentation to show it, then all credit to you!

--- Penguin

Originally posted by Penguin
Thousands?

I don't doubt that they are all easy to refute (otherwise there would only be one religion in the world) but did you really check them all?

I think we need to be very careful when we make sweeping statements like this.

On the other hand, if you really have checked them all and have the documentation to show it, then all credit to you!

--- Penguin

I am talking over many years, and thousands is reasonable. More often than not, they are circular arguments themselves. For example, an event described in the bible, then "evidence" is looked for which happen to fit, which in turn is said to "prove" the bible. I have just come across the arguments so many times and there hasn't been a single one which I haven't found any more reasonable explanation.

However, you are correct that without me having documentation showing my arguments, my words are pretty empty.

To rephrase, I will challenge RJHinds to find any "evidence" which confirm supernatural events in the bible as true, and I will have an alternative explanation which wouldn't be supernatural.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I guess your being a Romanian is irrelevant to your ignorant bull crap too,
since I know practically nothing about Romania. But I do know a lot about
the Holy Bible and Christianity. Are all those Christians, you claim to be in
Romania, ignorant and full of bull crap too?

no damn it. being a christian doesn't automatically make one ignorant and closed minded. i am a christian and i am not afraid to use my brain.

in your case it is true that religion has turned your brain to porridge, but ultimately it is your fault. you allow the scary image you turned god into to control you. you have access to knowledge, you just choose not to use it.

i don't care that your parents and your church have conditioned you to believe that the god of love was capable of killing all the children of the earth because he was to lazy to fix their parent, you have a chance now to say "this is stupid, i don't care that it is in the bible, god cannot have done that".

Originally posted by FMF
It seems that your vanity trumps Dasa's vanity.

go pay attention to dasa. i am gonna treat him however i damn please