Cross????

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
2 Corinthians 4:4 where Jesus is called the "icon" of God


Anything CAN become an idol, but just because somepeople are weak minded enough to allow themselves to worship an idol is no reason to condemn those who seek comfort from wearing a cross or acknowledging religious art or any of the many traditions of the Christian Church.

Yes we all need comfort from time to time and the wonderful provision that God gave us is the prayer to him thru his son Jesus. It is all we need. Can the cross do something that diect prayer to God thru Jesus can't? Why show some trust and seek comfort thru a very condemned practise of relying on a dead, useless piece of wood or bronze, etc, object to help us in times of need? Why is the cross any different then all the other objects that man has made thru the ages that God has constanly hated?
Again........Not one scripture in the Bible 'God's Word" tells any of us to use anything like the cross or the cross itself in our worship of God.

Originally posted by galveston75
Yes we all need comfort from time to time and the wonderful provision that God gave us is the prayer to him thru his son Jesus. It is all we need. Can the cross do something that diect prayer to God thru Jesus can't? Why show some trust and seek comfort thru a very condemned practise of relying on a dead, useless piece of wood or bronze, etc, object to h " tells any of us to use anything like the cross or the cross itself in our worship of God.

and not one tells us not to.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
and not one tells us not to.

So that makes it ok? No word from the Bible other then total condemnation of idols and images but because it does not specifically say the word "Cross", then it's exempt?
Unbelievable!!!

Originally posted by galveston75
So that makes it ok? No word from the Bible other then total condemnation of idols and images but because it does not specifically say the word "Cross", then it's exempt?
Unbelievable!!!

Since the cross is the central point to which every part of the Bible, OT and NT points, yes, I'd say there would need to be specific instructions regarding its usage in religious ceremonies.
I agree with your basic point: The Bible says nothing about computers or marijuana used as a medicinal drug, butit would be silly to speculate on God's opinion on their use. The cross, as a defining symbol of our faith however, I believe would a bit of ink spilt on its behalf.

Originally posted by duecer
nooo JHVH (or YHWH) is a tetragrammaton...not a name. Gods name was never meant to be written, if it were, then God who inspired all of the bible would have inspired the writer to write his name in full, get it?

This I understand to be totally true. The Jewish scribes used the tetragrammaton because they would not or dared not to write God's name. They considered the name of God too sacred. So why should the JW's have the right to know it? Or write it? You have to understand Jehovah is just someones way of trying to put a sound or make a word from the tetragrammaton.


Manny

Originally posted by galveston75
Yes we all need comfort from time to time and the wonderful provision that God gave us is the prayer to him thru his son Jesus. It is all we need. Can the cross do something that diect prayer to God thru Jesus can't? Why show some trust and seek comfort thru a very condemned practise of relying on a dead, useless piece of wood or bronze, etc, object to h ...[text shortened]... " tells any of us to use anything like the cross or the cross itself in our worship of God.

Ok but let me twist this on you G-75 for a minute. Using your logic as a JW right? Why should I have to pray to God thru Jesus his son? Would that not make Jesus a potential idol? I'm using your logic now. Why can't I just pray directly to the Almighty? Or maybe there is something deeper here.





Manny

Originally posted by menace71
This I understand to be totally true. The Jewish scribes used the tetragrammaton because they would not or dared not to write God's name. They considered the name of God too sacred. So why should the JW's have the right to know it? Or write it? You have to understand Jehovah is just someones way of trying to put a sound or make a word from the tetragrammaton.


Manny

people were using it for hundreds of years before Jehovahs witnesses, i mean was it a witness that put it in the King James Bible in 1600

Originally posted by menace71
Ok but let me twist this on you G-75 for a minute. Using your logic as a JW right? Why should I have to pray to God thru Jesus his son? Would that not make Jesus a potential idol? I'm using your logic now. Why can't I just pray directly to the Almighty? Or maybe there is something deeper here.





Manny

John 14:6. You have to pray thru Jesus to have Jehovah hear your prayers because it says so here.
1Tim 2:5. It says here there is only 1 mediator, Jesus. No cross, no saint, no human such as a Priest can do anything on our behalf in our communication to God such as the asking of God to forgive our sins.
Heb 8:6 confirms again that Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenent that Jesus established or one could say he's like an ambassador between ourselves and God.
So no, praying thru Jesus's name is only using Jesus as a spokeman for us in communicating to God just as an ambassador would relay a message from one person to another or to a Government. No where in the Bible does this give any indication that this is worshipping Jesus. As a matter of fact there is no command to ever worship Jesus in the Bible in anyway. But did Jesus giving up his life here on earth not gain him the right to be the mediator or helper in our relationship with his Father?
So before Jesus came to earth and the New Covenant was established by him, man at times could pray directly to Jehovah. But sacrifices had to be involved and usually later they were done by a high priest on behalf of us.
But among other things, one of the main things was that Jesus now became the Greater High Priest for us and now becoming the one that replaced all the sacrifices that used to be done for our sins and the human high priest and is now our only way to communicate to God thru.
So if one uses idols or images or saints or humans to pray to God thru, then one is canceling the ""validation"" of what Jesus did with sacrificing himself for us. So sence he is the only mediator, ones prayers are not going to be heard according to these scriptures and many more like them if they pray any other way.

From the Insight Book....

MEDIATOR
"One who interposes between two parties at variance to reconcile them; an intercessor; an intermediary agent, or go-between. In the Scriptures the term is applied to Moses and Jesus, the mediators respectively of the Law covenant and the new covenant.—Ga 3:19; 1Ti 2:5."

"For the validation of the Law covenant, the sacrifice used was that of animals—bulls and goats—these taking the place of Moses, the mediator. (Heb 9:19) For validating the new covenant, the sacrifice was the human life of Jesus Christ.—Lu 22:20"

Take care...

Originally posted by galveston75
John 14:6. You have to pray thru Jesus to have Jehovah hear your prayers because it says so here.
1Tim 2:5. It says here there is only 1 mediator, Jesus. No cross, no saint, no human such as a Priest can do anything on our behalf in our communication to God such as the asking of God to forgive our sins.
Heb 8:6 confirms again that Jesus is the medi covenant, the sacrifice was the human life of Jesus Christ.—Lu 22:20"

Take care...

By the way I agree with the scriptures and I love the ones in the book of Hebrews. Hebrews speaks of the superiority of Christ over man and angels and such. How He is the prefect high priest. Superior to the Aaronic priesthood and compares Christ to Melchizedek and it says he had no beginning or end why is this? He Christ was like Melchizedek with no beginning or end. So agree at least that Christ is our High priest and mediator. He is also know as and advocate for us before God the father. Advocate is a legal term of sorts. He is like LOL our attorney before God the father. He defends us or better than that covers us 😉
The scriptures are beautiful when we see all of the nuances and what they mean for us.

Manny

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
people were using it for hundreds of years before Jehovahs witnesses, i mean was it a witness that put it in the King James Bible in 1600

Really? Then are you saying that the Jewish scribes wrote the name of God? I believe Jewish tradition says otherwise.







Manny

Originally posted by menace71
By the way I agree with the scriptures and I love the ones in the book of Hebrews. Hebrews speaks of the superiority of Christ over man and angels and such. How He is the prefect high priest. Superior to the Aaronic priesthood and compares Christ to Melchizedek and it says he had no beginning or end why is this? He Christ was like Melchizedek with no begin ...[text shortened]...
The scriptures are beautiful when we see all of the nuances and what they mean for us.

Manny

So yes Jesus has earned by his death and has been put into this position by his father Jehovah. So according to the Bible Jesus is all we need to go thru to have a relationship with his Father.
So there is absolutly no indication from Jesus or his Father that we need anything else such as the cross, prayer beads, saints, etc, in praying to God thru his son's name Jesus. That's it.
So if one were to use these other things, then one would be going beyond what is needed and in effect are getting burdend down with traditions of man made ideas and as mentioned earlier negating the importance of what Jesus did and would be implying that Jesus's sacrifice just wasn't good enough.
Nothing else is needed and it's really that simple.

Originally posted by galveston75
So yes Jesus has earned by his death and has been put into this position by his father Jehovah. So according to the Bible Jesus is all we need to go thru to have a relationship with his Father.
So there is absolutly no indication from Jesus or his Father that we need anything else such as the cross, prayer beads, saints, etc, in praying to God thru hi ...[text shortened]... 's sacrifice just wasn't good enough.
Nothing else is needed and it's really that simple.

So if one were to use these other things, then one would be going beyond what is needed and in effect are getting burdend down with traditions of man made ideas and as mentioned earlier negating the importance of what Jesus did and would be implying that Jesus's sacrifice just wasn't good enough.

Well, that's certainly a novel argument. Once again, you completely lack any psychological insight into the mind of other Christians. Have you ever asked yourself why people have the cross or pray with beads or have a devotion to a particular saint?

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]So if one were to use these other things, then one would be going beyond what is needed and in effect are getting burdend down with traditions of man made ideas and as mentioned earlier negating the importance of what Jesus did and would be implying that Jesus's sacrifice just wasn't good enough.

Well, that's certainly a novel argument. Once again ...[text shortened]... urself why people have the cross or pray with beads or have a devotion to a particular saint?[/b]

Ok you tell me why it's needed and why Jesus isn't enough? BY SCRIPTURE ONLY OR DON"T ANSWER. I only believe the Bible as a Christian should.

Originally posted by galveston75
Ok you tell me why it's needed and why Jesus isn't enough? BY SCRIPTURE ONLY OR DON"T ANSWER. I only believe the Bible as a Christian should.

Exactly how can I use Scripture to explain why people use these things now? Do I need the Bible to answer why people cross the road too?

Originally posted by Conrau K
Exactly how can I use Scripture to explain why people use these things now? Do I need the Bible to answer why people cross the road too?

Our true worship to God is a little more important then crossing a road. And all facets of someones worship to God should be pure and true and one should be able to explain all facets of it from the Bible. But if their beliefs are not from the Bible and are something designed by man then that causes a problem with one trying to explain their beliefs in an honest and true way.
You have tried many times now to justify such things as the use of the cross and why it is justified. And you have failed miserably trying to convience anyone that it is something necesary and is OK by God to use.
So this is your last chance to simply prove from the Bible that God accepts the cross, as he has totally condemend idols and images from mans creation on..........