Cross????

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
actually i do not read Conraus posts, he has made it perfectly clear that he wishes to have no part in any discussion with either myself nor Galvo. If only he would keep his word. You may refer to one of his previous posts.

Once again you are making the mistake of declaring an opinion, in this case your own opinion as being synonymous with some ...[text shortened]... d and spiritually clean before God. Your claims of irrelevance are based on what? who can tell.

Your claims of irrelevance are based on what? who can tell.

What I claimed is that for Christians who symbolize the cross, the past pagan significance of the cross to which you referred is irrelevant to what these persons today take the cross to stand for and why they take it to be meaningful. What is this claim based on? It is based on descriptive fact concerning what sorts of considerations do (not) inform the value they ascribe to the cross as an enduring symbol of their faith. I mean, feel free to start employing some common sense on this issue.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]Yes if it is used in any kind of worship.

Right. So what about those many Christians who do not use the cross in any kind of worship. No bowing, kissing or kneeling or any overt gesture of homage. Presumably that is not idolatry?

If that is the case, you and Robbie, as I explained before, need to clarify your objection to the crucifix.[/b]

Well that would be sitting on a very unstable fence wouldn't you say if you think about it. The cross is really made for nothing else that I can think of other then to use it in a religious sense, correct? So if you don't personally use it for that purpose that it was made but knowing what God says about having it in your possesion, does that make it ok to still have it somewhere in your house or on your neck?
Knowing what we know from scripture do you think God would have let that golden calf be in the midst of his people if they said "we made it and want to keep it with us but were not going to pray to it or anything?"
I'm not saying you don't have Bible knowledge or a conscience Conrau, but it appears that in this point your missing the gravity of the clear statements and examples in the Bible of how God """hates""" images or idols. We don't have a choice on deciding if it's ok to have a cross in our house or church even though we don't use it in a spiritual sence. God made that choice for us all in the beginning. It's dangerous to try and skirt around his commands with something he actually """ hates""".
Would it be fair or right to keep something in your home such as the gun that was used by someone to kill your child if your mate hated and actually detested it?
Thanks...

It's interesting to see that fundamentalists can change their opinions, once in a while.
The cross Jesus hanged on wasn't a cross even if they say it was. Whatever it was they still say ti was a cross, even if they now know that it wasn't one. Very interesting indeed.

When will they aknowledge the truth of other things? Soon? Never?

Originally posted by galveston75
Well that would be sitting on a very unstable fence wouldn't you say if you think about it. The cross is really made for nothing else that I can think of other then to use it in a religious sense, correct? So if you don't personally use it for that purpose that it was made but knowing what God says about having it in your possesion, does that make it ok kill your child if your mate hated and actually detested it?
Thanks...

So if you don't personally use it for that purpose that it was made but knowing what God says about having it in your possesion, does that make it ok to still have it somewhere in your house or on your neck?

Sure. Many Christians depict the Icthus fish. It has a religious sense but they certainly do not use it in worship. Perhaps the cross is no different.

Knowing what we know from scripture do you think God would have let that golden calf be in the midst of his people if they said "we made it and want to keep it with us but were not going to pray to it or anything?"

Yes. As I have pointed out, God in the Scriptures frequently instructed the Israelites to place images and statues in religious spaces. For example,

-- The brazen serpent (Numbers 21:9), not destroyed till Ezechias worshipped it (2 Kings 18:4);
-- The carved and moulded garlands of fruit and flowers and trees (Numbers 8:4; 1 Kings 6:18; 7:36);
-- carved lions on the king's throne (1 Kings 10:19-20);
-- Iions and bulls supported the basins in the temple (1 Kings 7:25, 29);
-- the cherubim, great carved figures of beasts (Ezekiel 1:5; 10:20, where they are called beasts), that stood over the ark of the covenant (Exodus 25:18-22; 1 Kings 6:23-8; 8:6-7.)

Please don't belittle my knowledge of Scripture. What is particularly galling is the fact that I have cited all these verses before.

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]Your claims of irrelevance are based on what? who can tell.

What I claimed is that for Christians who symbolize the cross, the past pagan significance of the cross to which you referred is irrelevant to what these persons today take the cross to stand for and why they take it to be meaningful. What is this claim based on? It is based on descri ...[text shortened]... ng symbol of their faith. I mean, feel free to start employing some common sense on this issue.[/b]

feel free to provide anything other than a mere opinion.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]So if you don't personally use it for that purpose that it was made but knowing what God says about having it in your possesion, does that make it ok to still have it somewhere in your house or on your neck?

Sure. Many Christians depict the Icthus fish. It has a religious sense but they certainly do not use it in worship. Perhaps the cross is no d ...[text shortened]... ipture. What is particularly galling is the fact that I have cited all these verses before.[/b]

And I've read them all before. But not in any of these scriptures were these items bowed down too, kissed, prayed too, made copies of and worn around their necks or placed in there homes, or given any special veneration. So why do you keep using them as some excuse to use the cross that was never commisioned by God to make?

Originally posted by galveston75
And I've read them all before. But not in any of these scriptures were these items bowed down too, kissed, prayed too, made copies of and worn around their necks or placed in there homes, or given any special veneration. So why do you keep using them as some excuse to use the cross that was never commisioned by God to make?

I don't know any Christians that show that level of devotion to a cross, but most will show that level to THE cross. It's a symbol for the sacrifice of Jesus that justifies us in approaching the throne of God (metaphorically) and seeking forgiveness.

Its a symbol that reminds us of the debt we can never repay. Our society is littered with lots of symbols, we don't worship them, but we do show a certain amount of respect. Headstones for example, are a symbol of the reverence we hold for life and for the life of the one who has passed. By your reasoning, anything that invokes respect, thoughtfulness, or even yes reverence should be eliminated from a Christians life....how then would we be able to identify McDonalds from the highway without those majestic golden arches?

Originally posted by duecer
I don't know any Christians that show that level of devotion to a cross, but most will show that level to THE cross. It's a symbol for the sacrifice of Jesus that justifies us in approaching the throne of God (metaphorically) and seeking forgiveness.

Its a symbol that reminds us of the debt we can never repay. Our society is littered with lots of symbols, would we be able to identify McDonalds from the highway without those majestic golden arches?

McDonalds?...Lol. That's the best one yet...........

Where in the Bible does it ever show that we are to use any idol to approach and pray to God thru or give any spiritual honor to?
But do you want me to repost all thew scriptures that say not to use idols for ANY reason?
You see man has come up with this tradition and have made up excuses to burden their flock into thinking they have to use these "Dungy Idols, as the Bible calls them" to worship God.
So show me 1 scripture where God says it's ok to use an idol like the cross in our worship of him. I'll be waiting.....

Originally posted by galveston75
McDonalds?...Lol. That's the best one yet...........

Where in the Bible does it ever show that we are to use any idol to approach and pray to God thru or give any spiritual honor to?
But do you want me to repost all thew scriptures that say not to use idols for ANY reason?
You see man has come up with this tradition and have made up excuses to bu ...[text shortened]... God says it's ok to use an idol like the cross in our worship of him. I'll be waiting.....

show me one edict of a mainline denomination older than 200 years that says Christians must use a cross to worship

Originally posted by duecer
show me one edict of a mainline denomination older than 200 years that says Christians must use a cross to worship

No you first... but you can't can you? But with your edict, actions speak louder then words! Take away their crosses and see what would happens. They'd feel helpless.

Originally posted by galveston75
And I've read them all before. But not in any of these scriptures were these items bowed down too, kissed, prayed too, made copies of and worn around their necks or placed in there homes, or given any special veneration. So why do you keep using them as some excuse to use the cross that was never commisioned by God to make?

And I've read them all before. But not in any of these scriptures were these items bowed down too, kissed, prayed too, made copies of and worn around their necks or placed in there homes, or given any special veneration.

Yes, and as I said before, most Christians do not give any gesture to the cross. Veneration is practiced by Catholic and Orthodox Christians but rarely outside (Do I really need to point out the existence of Protestant Christians?) As I said before, presumably, then, these Christians are not guilty of idolatry for merely possessing the cross.

It is quite clear you are obfuscating. In your previous post, you quite clearly demonstrated that you understood that the issue was about possessing the cross, not worshipping it. You used a hypothetical of the Israelites demanding to keep the golden calf, though without worshipping it. Why suddenly do you feign misunderstanding?

Originally posted by galveston75
McDonalds?...Lol. That's the best one yet...........

Where in the Bible does it ever show that we are to use any idol to approach and pray to God thru or give any spiritual honor to?
But do you want me to repost all thew scriptures that say not to use idols for ANY reason?
You see man has come up with this tradition and have made up excuses to bu ...[text shortened]... God says it's ok to use an idol like the cross in our worship of him. I'll be waiting.....

Where in the Bible does it ever show that we are to use any idol to approach and pray to God thru or give any spiritual honor to?

I might have pointed this out before, but Catholics, Orthodox Christians and Protestant Christians do not believe in any need for an idol in order to approach and pray to God. I really have to ask, why, when I have explained this ad nauseum, do you still fail to understand this?

Originally posted by duecer
show me one edict of a mainline denomination older than 200 years that says Christians must use a cross to worship

well hey, Jesus died in a car accident, lets worship the car, erect cars on the top of our spires, wear them around our necks, carry them on processions, kiss them in public, venerate and put them in our temples. Next time i look at the chessboard, the king will have a Honda Civic on top of him.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
well hey, Jesus died in a car accident, lets worship the car, erect cars on the top of our spires, wear them around our necks, carry them on processions, kiss them in public, venerate and put them in our temples. Next time i look at the chessboard, the king will have a Honda Civic on top of him.

erect cars on the top of our spires, wear them around our necks, carry them on processions, kiss them in public, venerate and put them in our temples

Firstly, Protestant Christians do not carry the cross in procession, or kiss them in public or venerate them. Secondly, wearing the cross or simply putting it in their church is not an act of worship. Christians happily carry their national flag and may hoist that outside their church. They might also carry an image of a dove or the Icthus. None of that is even remotely idolatrous because there is no intention to worship.

But, um, feel free to offer anything other than a mere opinion.

Originally posted by galveston75
No you first... but you can't can you? But with your edict, actions speak louder then words! Take away their crosses and see what would happens. They'd feel helpless.

I'm not the one making the accusation, ergo the burden of proof is yours.

Yes...yes I think all those "Christians" out there would be helpless and not know where to turn without their precious crosses🙄