Cross????

Originally posted by jaywill
Every few years some Phd. writes a popular book claiming to be the newest inside story on the historical Jesus.

The Divinci Code,

And there was me thinking that The Davinci Code was a work of fiction.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Conclusion is that we don't know if Jesus was crucified or not...

Does it matter so much? His teachings are the only thing I like about him. He spoke a simple message to the simple of the time. By all acounts his actions were by and large positive in the short and mid term. The long term implications of his deeds remain up in the air for now-though christians will no doubt disagree. But facts are facts,(and in this particurlarly bland example they are probably not facts only truisms)

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Does it matter so much? His teachings are the only thing I like about him. He spoke a simple message to the simple of the time. By all acounts his actions were by and large positive in the short and mid term. The long term implications of his deeds remain up in the air for now-though christians will no doubt disagree. But facts are facts,(and in this particurlarly bland example they are probably not facts only truisms)

For you? No.
For me? Not the least.
For the majority of all the others who call themselves christians? Yes, probably.

There is not much known of how Jesus lived, what he said, and how he died. All the information of Jesus is know from the Roman documents (probably true) and hearsay (probably not so true). More than that we don't know much about.

Originally posted by galveston75
One can justify the use or possesion or whatever reason one came come up with to make, buy, create, bow down to, hold some religious importance on, venerate, or whatever.
But this is mans decision to do this and has never been approved in one scripture in the Bible, by God, Jesus, the apostles, the early Christians or the ones of old that followed Gods anyway in a religious sense, then why didn't Jesus do that or tell anyone at all to use them?

So what does the Scripture say? It encouges the disciples to be in the Spirit. Because in the Holy Spirit is the putting to death of the old man. And the putting to death of the old man is the work of the cross, in a spiritual sense but a very real sense.

So Paul says "... by the Spirit put to death the practices of the body" and
"those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts"

Paul's emphasis is the terminating work of the Holy Spirit being the "cross" to kill off the negative aspects of the old man for transformation to the image of Christ.

In other words the cross is in the actions of the Holy Spirit. Even to "take up his cross and follow Me" is involving walking in the Holy Spirit because Christ today to be followed is the Holy Spirit. Or the Holy Spirit is Christ in His pneumatic form.

The terminating work of the cross, the killing off work of the cross is in the Holy Spirit. If you do not have the Holy Spirit you know nothing of the work of the cross.

Now, I think perhaps more Christian hymns, which speak of the cross, associate it with the blood of Christ's redemption. This is probably more the custom. The cross is akin to an old testament altar of sacrifice.

But the more prevalent usage of the cross in the New Testament is associated with termination of the old Adamic fallen being that man may be transformed to be like Christ.

The more popular Christian association = The cross as the place of Christ's blood letting.

The more prevalent NT usage = The cross meaning denial of the self and terminating of the fallen man to be transformed to the new man in Christ.

Another popular association of the cross is that it is suffering. One "bears his cross" meaning one suffers.

But the emphasis of the cross in the NT is not suffering but dying. The cross is not meant to be your suffering. It is meant to be the terminating power which frees one from the old fallen nature. God doesn't want you to suffer. He wants you to die to the old man and be raised in the new man.

It is ironic to me that the Jehovah's Witnesses are so wary about the superstitious use of the cross when they completely ignore what I would consider their own superstitions. Their obsession with preventing blood tranfusions, I regard, as little else but their superstitious attitude toward a useful medical practice.

Originally posted by twhitehead
And there was me thinking that The Davinci Code was a work of fiction.

============================
And there was me thinking that The Davinci Code was a work of fiction.
==============================

I thought that the fiction was based on someone's serious thesis - a fictionalized embellishment of a historical thesis.

But I could be wrong about that. I never read it.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
For you? No.
For me? Not the least.
For the majority of all the others who call themselves christians? Yes, probably.

There is not much known of how Jesus lived, what he said, and how he died. All the information of Jesus is know from the Roman documents (probably true) and hearsay (probably not so true). More than that we don't know much about.

"There is not much known of how Jesus lived, what he said, and how he died."

Silly, obtuse, and immature as h-e-double hockey sticks.


What you should have said was, "there is not much I believe about how Jesus lived, what he said, and how he died."

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"There is not much known of how Jesus lived, what he said, and how he died."

Silly, obtuse, and immature as h-e-double hockey sticks.


What you should have said was, "there is not much I believe about how Jesus lived, what he said, and how he died."[/b]

I agree. This is little more than just hoping that the whole matter of Jesus will just fade away if one just ignores the New Testament.

The Son of God, is to some, just a nuisance that they hope will fade away if ignored. Then they can get peacefully along with their own lives, what they want to do, with no inteferance from any Saviors or Lords.

But Jesus Christ, God's Son, is the significant One in the human race's living room which cannot be ignored. It is better to submit to His love and be saved from our sins into His eternal kingdom.

Originally posted by jaywill
I agree. This is little more than just hoping that the whole matter of Jesus will just fade away if one just ignores the New Testament.

The Son of God, is to some, just a nuisance that they hope will fade away if ignored. Then they can get peacefully along with their own lives, what they want to do, with no inteferance from any Saviors or Lords.

But ...[text shortened]... ored. It is better to submit to His love and be saved from our sins into His eternal kingdom.

not a very successful illustration i hasten to add - 😞

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
not a very successful illustration i hasten to add - 😞

How do you know ? Maybe it was to someone.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
not a very successful illustration i hasten to add - 😞

I changed it Robbie.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"There is not much known of how Jesus lived, what he said, and how he died."

Silly, obtuse, and immature as h-e-double hockey sticks.


What you should have said was, "there is not much I believe about how Jesus lived, what he said, and how he died."[/b]

Or rather "There is not much to believe about how Jesus lived, what he said, and how he died unless you religiously believe in the hearsay."

You see, in your religious opinion, you can hold everything in the bible as true, even the paradoxes and contradicitons. But that is your problem, not mine.

Originally posted by jaywill
I changed it Robbie.

lol, i am only making fun dear Jay, dont pay any attention to my words and no need to change it 🙂

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
lol, i am only making fun dear Jay, dont pay any attention to my words and no need to change it 🙂

You are a friendly soul Robbie.

Let me ask you a sincere question.

Do you trust someone enough that you could simply give them a New Testament, tell them to read it and pray to God, and have confidence that they would come to the knowledge of the truth ?

Do you trust people that the essential truths of the New Testament could be learned just by one reading it with an open heart and a prayerful spirit ?

I am talking about the essential truths.

Originally posted by jaywill
You are a friendly soul Robbie.

Let me ask you a sincere question.

Do you trust someone enough that you could simply give them a New Testament, tell them to read it and pray to God, and have confidence that they would come to the knowledge of the truth ?

Do you trust people that the essential truths of the New Testament could be learned just by o ...[text shortened]... ing it with an open heart and a prayerful spirit ?

I am talking about the essential truths.

actually Jaywill this is an excellent question.

when i was in my youth i tried very earnestly to read scripture, both old and knew and it made no sense to me. i loved particularly the book of proverbs for it seemed to me to contain much wisdom, and Jesus was like a hero figure, someone who had walked the earth and never told a lie was just awesome to me, however i could not get the sense of the whole, to grasp the constituent parts so as to piece them together and see the big picture. therefore it was not until i tried to change and clean up my life that i started to make some progress. To answer your question, what i think truly happens (i have asked a number of other persons who corroborate the same experience) is that as one attempts to clean ones life up, God sees that we are making sincere efforts to bring our life into harmony with his revealed word and he provides Holy spirit to help us (the helper i think it is termed), thus to be frank, without holy spirit i think it almost impossible that a person can come to an accurate knowledge of biblical truth by themselves, at least this has been my own experience. I cannot speak for others though 🙂

These other points you make are also excellent, for an open heart, or an open mind is also essential, Christ emphasised that we should be teachable and a prayerful attitude is surely one of humility, further emphasising the quality of meekness and thus being teachable.

Originally posted by jaywill
So what does the Scripture say? It encouges the disciples to be in the Spirit. Because in the Holy Spirit is the putting to death of the old man. And the putting to death of the old man is the work of the cross, in a spiritual sense but a very real sense.

So Paul says [b]"... by the Spirit put to death the practices of the body" and
"those w ...[text shortened]... as little else but their superstitious attitude toward a useful medical practice.

Is there any record in the Bible of any of the apostles or other immediate followers of Jesus that were directly taught by Jesus, using the supposed cross as something to use in their worship to God?
It just seems that if we are to have such an instrument that we need to use and possess it would have happened immediatly by them.
But instead it wasn't really brought to use for about 400 years.
And again it's a fact that Jesus said that false teachings and practices would be brought in and finally accepted once he and his apostles were gone in death.

1Tim 4:1.
2Thess 2:3.
Acts 20:30.
2Pet 1-3.

So these scriptures mean something and were spoken and written down for a real reason. Yes...No? So when you have a situation where all thru recorded history of what God did not want his people to be in the possession of our use such as any idol of any kind, Jesus never ever used and idol of any kind for any reason, he warned that ones later would bring in false teachings and practices, then you have a few hundred years go by and now the cross is being used by ones who also now pray to various idols, now believe God is 3 in 1, teach about a burning hell, etc, etc.
It would seem that someone who might be wanting to worship God without any falseness and with truth that he insist on, should start to wonder and question if these items and beliefs are really of a Christian origin or taught by Jesus.