Cross????

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]erect cars on the top of our spires, wear them around our necks, carry them on processions, kiss them in public, venerate and put them in our temples

Firstly, Protestant Christians do not carry the cross in procession, or kiss them in public or venerate them. Secondly, wearing the cross or simply putting it in their church is not an act of worship ...[text shortened]... e is no intention to worship.

But, um, feel free to offer anything other than a mere opinion.[/b]

But, um, feel free to offer anything other than a mere opinion.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it Carrobie!!!!!

Originally posted by Proper Knob
[b]But, um, feel free to offer anything other than a mere opinion.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it Carrobie!!!!![/b]

i only smoke peace pipes and have no time for such petty squabbling! Hes still sore cause i snuck in and ate the sacrament when i wasn't even a Catholic!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i only smoke peace pipes and have no time for such petty squabbling! Hes still sore cause i snuck in and ate the sacrament when i wasn't even a Catholic!

To be honest, I don't really care. I am surprised however at your apparent insouciance. Given that Catholics worship the Eucharist as the real presence of Jesus Christ, I would have thought that St Paul's injunction (1Cor 8) would have deterred you. Given also that you vigorously reject the right to celebrate Eucharist on any day other than the passover, I am surprised that you participated in the ritual, rather than absent yourself from Communion.

You are so immature by the way.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
[b]But, um, feel free to offer anything other than a mere opinion.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it Carrobie!!!!![/b]

tell him i am remorseless!

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]And I've read them all before. But not in any of these scriptures were these items bowed down too, kissed, prayed too, made copies of and worn around their necks or placed in there homes, or given any special veneration.

Yes, and as I said before, most Christians do not give any gesture to the cross. Veneration is practiced by Catholic and Orthod ...[text shortened]... eep the golden calf, though without worshipping it. Why suddenly do you feign misunderstanding?[/b]

From Catholic Online: "The Veneration of the Cross"
In the seventh century, the Church in Rome adopted the practice of Adoration of the Cross from the Church in Jerusalem, where a fragment of wood believed to be the Lord's cross had been venerated every year on Good Friday since the fourth century. According to tradition, a part of the Holy Cross was discovered by the mother of the emperor Constantine, St. Helen, on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem in 326. A fifth century account describes this service in Jerusalem. A coffer of gold-plated silver containing the wood of the cross was brought forward. The bishop placed the relic on the a table in the chapel of the Crucifixion and the faithful approached it, touching brow and eyes and lips to the wood as the priest said (as every priest has done ever since): 'Behold, the Wood of the Cross.'

Adoration or veneration of an image or representation of Christ's cross does not mean that we are actually adoring the material image, of course, but rather what it represents. In (((((((( kneeling before the crucifix and kissing it we are paying the highest honor to the our Lord's cross)))))))) as the instrument of our salvation. Because the Cross is inseparable from His sacrifice, in reverencing His Cross we are, in effect, adoring Christ. Thus we affirm: 'We adore Thee, O Christ, and we bless Thee because by Thy Holy Cross Thou has Redeemed the World.'

(((((( Ex 20:4, 5 says Not to bow down to them! Do the Catholics BOW DOWN to them in their services? It appears so.
Isaiah 42:8 says that God does not yeild his Honor to idols. Do the Catholics HONOR their idols. It appears so.))))))

And why do the Catholics NEED such objects to remind them of Jesus and his death? Just bad memories?

Originally posted by galveston75
From Catholic Online: "The Veneration of the Cross"
In the seventh century, the Church in Rome adopted the practice of Adoration of the Cross from the Church in Jerusalem, where a fragment of wood believed to be the Lord's cross had been venerated every year on Good Friday since the fourth century. According to tradition, a part of the Holy Cross was di ...[text shortened]... e Catholics NEED such objects to remind them of Jesus and his death? Just bad memories?

And why do the Catholics NEED such objects to remind them of Jesus and his death? Just bad memories?

An interesting question and I am sure that there are a number of answers. However, we were discussing Christianity in general, not Catholicism, and you accused all Christians of idolatry if they use the cross. You have since clarified that it is only when they bow or gesticulate or venerate the cross that it is actually idolatrous.

Given this, will you now rescind your accusation, since Joseph, duecer, manny and Jaywill have all denied engaging in that devotion to the cross? It seems, by your own explanation of what constitutes idolatry, that their use of the cross is not idolatrous and therefore the crucifix is not intrinsically idolatrous.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]And why do the Catholics NEED such objects to remind them of Jesus and his death? Just bad memories?

An interesting question and I am sure that there are a number of answers. However, we were discussing Christianity in general, not Catholicism, and you accused all Christians of idolatry if they use the cross. You have since clarified ...[text shortened]... r use of the cross is not idolatrous and therefore the crucifix is not intrinsically idolatrous.[/b]

Skirting the questions again. Just can't admit the facts I present to you that the Catholics do these things. Ok then...
And I rescind nothing. The Bible is extremely clear on God's viewpoint on idols of any kind. If the othesr associate with a religion that posses them then they are involved in idolitry.

Originally posted by galveston75
Skirting the questions again. Just can't admit the facts I present to you that the Catholics do these things. Ok then...
And I rescind nothing. The Bible is extremely clear on God's viewpoint on idols of any kind. If the othesr associate with a religion that posses them then they are involved in idolitry.

The Bible is extremely clear on God's viewpoint on idols of any kind. If the othesr associate with a religion that posses them then they are involved in idolitry.

Yes, everyone is well aware of God's prohibition of idols. Can you explain, however, how the cross is an idol? What, for example, distinguishes a cross in a church from the images of the cherubims in Solomon's temple? I believe you said that the difference was how people treated the object. Hence, I should think, Protestant Christians are not guilty of idolatry.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]And why do the Catholics NEED such objects to remind them of Jesus and his death? Just bad memories?

An interesting question and I am sure that there are a number of answers. However, we were discussing Christianity in general, not Catholicism, and you accused all Christians of idolatry if they use the cross. You have since clarified ...[text shortened]... r use of the cross is not idolatrous and therefore the crucifix is not intrinsically idolatrous.[/b]

I agree on this you guys G75 & RC you have to at least differentiate between Catholicism and Protestant and Greek Orthodox. Not all sects believe the same thing. It would be like me saying all JW's are mean!! 🙂 Which I know not to be true.

By the G-75 I was joking about the Mustang thing 😉



Manny

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b] The Bible is extremely clear on God's viewpoint on idols of any kind. If the othesr associate with a religion that posses them then they are involved in idolitry.

Yes, everyone is well aware of God's prohibition of idols. Can you explain, however, how the cross is an idol? What, for example, distinguishes a cross in a church from the images of th ...[text shortened]... treated the object. Hence, I should think, Protestant Christians are not guilty of idolatry.[/b]

Good point. God commanded the Israelites to create the ark with the gold and the cherubim and this was meant to be a visual pattern for what was in heaven. The other funny thing is serpent on the rod or pole!! God said when men were looking toward it they would would not get bit get by the snakes in that plague. However later on this very object the serpent became an idol. I think the message is how we look at and what we do with an object. Your i phone can be your idol. Your T.V. your hobby. anything !! Your love of anything that is placed before God. The flip side of this is that the enlightened man knows the differences. I think most Christians here know better than to worship a piece of wood or metal or what have you. Why does Jesus use metaphor or parables? Why does man have an imagination? Why color or art?


Manny

The snake was a foreshadowing of Christ on the cross (or whatever the Roman torture device was) !! Notice the medical symbol?? It's the snake on a staff!! 🙂

The Book of Colossians says self abasement and asceticism does nothing. Stop telling your fellow man you can only do this or that. Don't worship on this day or that day. Don't eat this or that!! Don't touch!! this or that!! These were just mere shadows the true substance is in and is Christ!! Christ came to liberate man's mind out of darkness. WE know better than to worship a cross!! It's an object or symbol nothing more.



Manny

By the way I love you guys LOL G-75 & RC 😉 You guys mean well I know that.

G-75 kicked my butt in chess but we'll still have to play again soon.




Manny

Originally posted by menace71
By the way I love you guys LOL G-75 & RC 😉 You guys mean well I know that.

G-75 kicked my butt in chess but we'll still have to play again soon.




Manny

Galvo kicked your butt? you gotta watch out for those long eared hairy varments from Texas, they're meaner than a skillet full of rattle snakes!, ya'll 😀

Originally posted by menace71
I agree on this you guys G75 & RC you have to at least differentiate between Catholicism and Protestant and Greek Orthodox. Not all sects believe the same thing. It would be like me saying all JW's are mean!! 🙂 Which I know not to be true.

By the G-75 I was joking about the Mustang thing 😉



Manny

Oh I know...I do have to keep the Mustang thing in perspective too as I tend to spend money we don't have on it. A reminder my wife is quick to use...Lol.