Decoder Rings ?

Originally posted by sonship
I don't know what comment you are referring to.

Really?
Truthfully?

There is no way for me to "symbolize out" the fearful nature of the biblical "lake of fire".

If you spiritualize the matter it is no less dreadful.

God says to the froward He will show Himself froward (Psalm 18:25).

Stubbornly contrary and disobedient; obstinate.

King James Bible
With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.

International Standard Version
to the pure, you show yourself pure, and to the morally corrupt, you appear to be perverse.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
With the Elect One you will be elect, and with the crooked you will be perverse.

Originally posted by divegeester
Really?
Truthfully?

Come now. I am in a few conversations here.

But while we are on unanswered questions - I think there are a few unresponded to requests I have made to you.

You can ask me again. I think a few days ago I said I was not going to argue about eternal damnation. If it was a question that prompted this post of mine, I'd have to go back and see what it was.

To my sense the outstanding matter that called for a response was about symbolism being possible with the lake of fire. And I just responded to that. I never insisted that it could not be metaphorical or symbolic in some sense.

Originally posted by sonship
Come now. I am in a few conversations here.

But while we are on unanswered questions - I think there are a few unresponded to requests I have made to you.

You can ask me again. I think a few days ago I said I was not going to argue about eternal damnation. If it was a question that prompted this post of mine, I'd have to go back and see what it was. ...[text shortened]... responded to that. I never insisted that it could not be metaphorical or symbolic in some sense.

Here you go then:

All this symbolism, and yet you still maintain there is a literal lake of fire where God will literally burn unbelievers for eternity.

This is why we don't see eye to eye. "Did you get that?"

Originally posted by sonship

Many people have described Paul's thorn as being weak eyes, some say a disease or sickness of some kind, some even go as far as saying he had a sexual perversion or weakness.

I never in my life heard about the thorn being a sexual perversion. Frankly, I don't think it is worth a thought.

But that it may have had to do with an ailment ...[text shortened]... ]"distresses" and "weaknesses" rather than "persecutions" or "insults".[/b]

The problem is that the "thorns" that God predicted to be troublesome to the Israelites would be the disciplinary result of their disobedience. For not following through to drive out the inhabitants, especially in their idolatrous worship centers, their tolerance would cause the thorns of trouble to them.

It was not discipline, they were consequences they brought on themselves just like the consequences for sin today, that is, we give Satan a foothold.

To adopt this view, transferring it to the Apostle Paul, I have to imagine that some hesitation, some refusal to cooperate with God, and some leniency that tolerated something displeasing to God was the cause of the thorn in his flesh.

Paul's only disobedience was to go to Jerusalem in the first place. Be that as it may, it is not discipline from God. All who live godly will suffer persecution.

Paul speaks of the thorn as an "it" rather than as a person

I have to disagree since a "messenger of Satan" is pretty clear to me that Satan was trying to thwart Paul at every instance.

"And He [Christ] said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness.

Paul was told to lean on Christ, that more Grace would be given.

I stand by what I posted, Satan incited crowds to hinder Paul, and this was his thorn.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

I have to disagree since a "messenger of Satan" is pretty clear to me that Satan was trying to thwart Paul at every instance.

Of course he was. But when he DID go somewhere Satan also tried to give him some kind of trouble to render his ministry not effective.

My feeling is that the ailment in his flesh somehow interfered with his working.

Paul's only disobedience was to go to Jerusalem in the first place. Be that as it may, it is not discipline from God. All who live godly will suffer persecution.

How do you know that Paul was disobedient to go to Jerusalem ?
I am not so sure there was disobedience in this. I am opened to be persuaded if your evidence is good enough. .

How do you know that he was being disobedient to God to go to Jerusalem ?

All this "symbolism", and yet allegedly, there is a literal lake of fire where God will literally burn unbelievers for eternity.

Originally posted by sonship

I have to disagree since a "messenger of Satan" is pretty clear to me that Satan was trying to thwart Paul at every instance.

Of course he was. But when he DID go somewhere Satan also tried to give him some kind of trouble to render his ministry not effective.

My feeling is that the ailment in his flesh somehow interfered with his ...[text shortened]... is good enough. .

How do you know that he was being disobedient to God to go to Jerusalem ?

http://www.raystedman.org/new-testament/acts/pauls-mistake

Originally posted by divegeester
All this "symbolism", and yet allegedly, there is a literal lake of fire where God will literally burn unbelievers for eternity.

What's wrong, is your decoder ring on the *fritz?

* broken

Originally posted by lemon lime
What's wrong, is your decoder ring on the *fritz?

* broken

What do you think my premise that with all this symbolism in the bible which sonship is going on about, that he'll and eternal suffering are also symbols?

Paul's going to Jerusalem - according to or against God's will -

Checkbaiter, can you say something about it yourself ?

Originally posted by divegeester
What do you think my premise that with all this symbolism in the bible which sonship is going on about, that he'll and eternal suffering are also symbols?

The post which started this discussion on Decoder Rings was very positive. It was over on the thread "The Spirit was not yet".

In that thread I outlined what I have received, and been persuaded of, concerning the typology of the anointing oil in Exodus 30 showing the human life and accomplishments of Jesus Christ being compounded into the eternal Spirit.

For someone that was a bit too much symbolism and remarked about "decoder ring" needed to understand that symbolism.

Actually it is more experience that is called for to unlock some of the deeper metaphors and symbols of the revelation of God. The Lord assigned and reserved a wisdom to the builders and apostles of His church to help the saints to see the mysterious of this Person Christ.

" But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery; the wisdom which has been hidden, which God predestined before the ages for our glory.

Which none of the rulers of this age have known; for if they had known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (1 Cor. 2:7,8)

I believe there is a wisdom in interpreting metaphors and symbolism and typology in types and shadows which God ordained for the workers upon His house. If some things seem a bit hard to swallow, i would suggest they not be discarded. At some latter time in the Christian journey they may be revisited and be more appreciated.

I am speaking here firstly of the positive symbols. Some want to give the greater amount of discussion on the negative matters of eternal damnation. I don't say these have to be ignored. But I wish we could spend at least equal time on the positive metaphors about Christ.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
http://www.raystedman.org/new-testament/acts/pauls-mistake

Right here ?

Through the Spirit they told Paul not to go on to Jerusalem.

See Acts 21:1-6

Its a good point. I'll take some time on it.

Very interesting article checkbaiter. Its a bit long for the point I am looking for. This is a good conclusion the writer comes to:

There is a deep lesson here for all of us, one which strikes particularly deeply into my own heart. It is that experience, long continued Christian experience, and spiritual insight, and understanding of Scripture, are no guarantees against failure, against missing the mind of God. That is why we often see men and women who have been greatly used of God for years and years, decades even, suddenly fail in some way and cast a blot upon their ministry, sometimes terribly so. This again indicates to us the deadliness of the enemy we are up against. The flesh can bide its time. It can wait out long periods of subjugation, of our victory in Christ, and then can catch us off guard -- especially by awakening a desire which seems to be right, seems to be exactly what God would want done.

Then the writer has this:

Now, the Spirit of God, as he was with Paul, is always faithful to warn us. We need not stumble blindly into this trap, any more than Paul needed to, but what this great study shows us is that we must be very careful to be obedient to the Spirit's voice. When he checks us, clearly and unmistakably, we are to obey. Otherwise we simply open ourselves up to unnecessary heartache, unnecessary limitation and restriction, as the apostle did here. But God did not abandon him, did not forsake him. He picked him up and used him in great power, turned those very limitations into opportunities for the advance of his cause. But Paul himself had to undergo deprivation, heartache, and suffering which he need not have endured, had he been obedient to the Holy Spirit. God help us to learn this -- that even a mighty apostle can fail in faith at times. Scripture is always honest with us and records for us the failures of even a man like Paul

It is important to me that Paul in signing out, knowing that he is about to be martyred said that he knew what awaited him was "the crown of righteousness".

He had confidence that he had run the race and finished his course. He was not only expecting a crown of mercy or grace but one of righteousness. He righteously lived and served God.

But it is a good point that the saints spoke to him through the Spirit not to go to Jerusalem. This may also have been God's mercy to the saints who petitioned God about Paul's well being. For their sakes He may have spoken through them for Paul to take the fellowship of the Body of Christ.

They eventually said "The Lord's will be done." Which was wise. I will not make further comment until I get some feedback from you.

Thanks for the article.