1. Donationbbarr
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    09 Aug '08 08:282 edits
    Originally posted by Henry23
    I've just finished reading through the whole debate concerning Tyre between bbarr and epiphinehas.

    I must congratulate you, epiphinehas, in my opinion you have soundly refuted bbarr's objections and presented evidence that any intellegent and intellectually honest person would have to acknowledge.

    Note also in Ezekiel 26:12 how the pronoun used in th or more intellectually honest parties. I should probably stop wasting my time with it.
    Please point out an instance here of intellectual dishonesty on my part. I have been conducting this debate in good faith, using public sources that have been vetted by experts. If I have committed some error so egregious to count as dissembling, then it should be easy for you to point it out. So, unless you have an example here to back up your accusation, please leave the debating to the grown-ups.
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    12 Aug '08 12:23
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Excuse me if I do not your sources seriously. I am providing you with academic sources from reputable and credentialed scholars in peer-reviewed journals. You are giving me stuff you come across on the web. Middleeast.com is a travel website, and I can’t find out who wrote the entry on Tyre. Barry Schindle is the author of the second source, but as far as ...[text shortened]... Bible super-duper and amplified. It is the credibility of the Bible that is here at issue.
    Are you claiming that if N. sacked Ushu that the prophecy is fulfilled, even though it claims N. will sack Tyre?

    Ushu was the original settlement, which is why it was also called, "Old Tyre." Without the mainland the island city could not survive, since the mainland was the island's only source of water (via rivers emptying into the sea). If N. attacks Ushu, it can certainly be considered an attack on Tyre. The full prophecy concerning Tyre, if the many nations interpretation is correct, includes not only N.'s campaign but others as well. God mentions only horses with respect to N., giving some clue that the full prophecy concerning the island city couldn't be fulfilled by N. alone (horses can't walk on water). How do you propose that N. could ride into the streets of island Tyre with horses and chariots? Either God doesn't know his geography, or there is more to this prophecy than you suppose.

    Perhaps you think that Ezekiel refers to all and only those things that make Ezekiel come out true. If so, then this debate is done.

    My point is that you can't positively assert that Ezekiel's prophecies are false. You claim as much, but you're only able to do so within a limited scope.
  3. Donationbbarr
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    12 Aug '08 22:041 edit
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    [b]Are you claiming that if N. sacked Ushu that the prophecy is fulfilled, even though it claims N. will sack Tyre?

    Ushu was the original settlement, which is why it was also called, "Old Tyre." Without the mainland the island city could not survive, since the mainland was the island's only source of water (via rivers emptying into the sea). If s are false. You claim as much, but you're only able to do so within a limited scope.[/b]
    Is this a response to my post above? I ask because you've neither cited any source here nor responded to my actual arguments.

    In any case, Ushu was the native name of the mainland city until the Greeks, well after Ezekiel was written, started calling the mainland 'Palaetyrus', translated as "Old Tyre". Tyre the island city has been mentioned as far back as 1800 B.C.E (see Vance, The Biblical Archaeologist, Vol. 57, No. 1 (Mar., 1994), pp. 2-19) in the Egyptian Execration Texts. Although there were, of course, interactions between Tyre and Ushu and other mainland cities, this is not sufficient to establish that the "Tyre", as referring to a city, encompasses both Tyre and Ushu. Of course if N. attacks Ushu it can be considered an attack on Tyre. Then again, if N. had attacked Carthage or another Tyrian colony it would be considered an attack on Tyre. Further, it is debatable whether Ushu even belonged to Tyre (see Elayi, Journal of Near Eastern Studies, Vol. 41, No. 2 (Apr., 1982), pp. 83-110).

    You haven't given any evidence for the "many nations" interpretation that is not also consistent with my "many nations in one" interpretation. Are you resting the entirety of this point upon the imagery of the sea hurling its waves in Ezekiel 26:3, and the "he" to "they" transition in Ezekiel 26:12? Because the wave imagery could just as well refer to the successive barrages upon Tyre by one army in one campaign. And the "he" to "they" transition is mirrored in Ezekiel 30:11, which refers explicitly to N. and his troops (in fact, in both these series of verses there is a transition from "he" to "they" to "I" ).

    God mentions only horses with respect to N., giving some clue that the full prophecy concerning the island city couldn't be fulfilled by N. alone (horses can't walk on water). How do you propose that N. could ride into the streets of island Tyre with horses and chariots? Either God doesn't know his geography, or there is more to this prophecy than you suppose.

    No, Ezekiel mentions horses, chariots, hordes of troops, walls of bucklers, axes, battering rams, etc. Since Ezekiel does not claim that a herd of horses will capture Tyre, your "argument" here is irrelevant. It is the battering rams and axes that, according to Ezekiel, will smash the walls and towers of Tyre. The horsemen and chariots are mentioned only in conjunction with N. entering the gates of Tyre as "men enter a breached city". Once he is in the city, it is claimed that the streets will be trampled, people put the sword, etc. Presumably, his horses and chariots would be transported to Tyre on some sort of device capable of floating on the water. I've heard these referred to as 'boats'.

    Right, within the limiting constraints on accurate interpretations of Ezekiel, the prophecies concerning N. in Tyre and Egypt are false. Gerrymander at your own risk.
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    13 Aug '08 01:22
    Back to the OP ...

    I regret I have not read all 178 replies, but the question is simply answered as follows. A Christian is anyone that believes Jesus Christ is their savior, the Son of God sent to redeem our souls. Orthodox Christians believe what is stated in the Nicene, Apostles and Athenasian Creeds. Simply stating a person accepts the Lord does not make it so by itself. For He said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
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    13 Aug '08 06:57
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Is this a response to my post above? I ask because you've neither cited any source here nor responded to my actual arguments.

    In any case, Ushu was the native name of the mainland city until the Greeks, well after Ezekiel was written, started calling the mainland 'Palaetyrus', translated as "Old Tyre". Tyre the island city has been mentioned as far back ...[text shortened]... in Tyre and Egypt are false. Gerrymander at your own risk.
    Right, within the limiting constraints on accurate interpretations of Ezekiel, the prophecies concerning N. in Tyre and Egypt are false. Gerrymander at your own risk.

    Give me a break. You're basing your conclusion that Ezekiel's prophecies concerning Nebuchadnezzar are false on nothing more than an interpretation you happen to be most fond of. Why act like you have authoritative proof that this prophecy is outright false? You blame me for engaging in 'gymnastics', yet you have no problem seeing what you want see in order to satisfy your original position. Spare me the condescension.

    Otherwise, kudos. You've out debated me. My Google can't compete with your peer-review journals and the like. You make a convincing case, sir.
  6. Hmmm . . .
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    13 Aug '08 09:022 edits
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    [b]Right, within the limiting constraints on accurate interpretations of Ezekiel, the prophecies concerning N. in Tyre and Egypt are false. Gerrymander at your own risk.

    Give me a break. You're basing your conclusion that Ezekiel's prophecies concerning Nebuchadnezzar are false on nothing more than an interpretation you happen to be most f n't compete with your peer-review journals and the like. You make a convincing case, sir.[/b]
    But isn’t that the point, Epi? Frankly, if all bbarr could show was that such a prophecy is equivocal, then he shows that any faith that is based on such prophecy is itself equivocal. I am not suggesting that is where your own faith is rooted. But if the prophecy depends simply on his hermeneutics versus yours, and neither hermeneutic can be demonstrated to be unequivocally invalid—then the validity of the prophecy is equivocal. I think that bbarr has shown more than that, but I am allowing for the natural limitations of what we can really show in this format.

    ___________________________________________

    One the one hand, those of us whose faith is more radically rooted (pun intended; and I am speaking for myself here, not bbarr) have an easier row to hoe in such matters: our faith is not undermined by such things as equivocality in scripture, or any other source of doctrinal authority for that matter. On the other hand, our faith is rooted in a reality that is prior to all concepts, creeds, scriptures, etc.—a reality that is fundamentally ineffable, in which and of which we also are—and so is not so easy to articulate (at least I do not find it so).

    You have charged Bennett here with being condescending. Maybe he is; I’ll let him speak for himself on that score. I suspect that you sometimes find me condescending; and I may be guilty. But I also find you to be sometimes condescending, unintentionally I am sure, when you start speaking about the informing nature of the Holy Spirit, etc.

    __________________________________________

    This is now a message to others than you, Epi: you have simply triggered it indirectly—

    Do not assume that those of us whose faith is not rooted in what I have called a formalistic religious expression are thereby faithless (again, as I use that word). Do not assume that our spirituality is less deep or serious than your own. Do not assume that we have not touched, and been touched by, the ineffable ground of being in the same way that you would say you have been touched by the Holy Spirit. Do not assume that we are simply spiritual skeptics. Do not assume that, because our spirituality is rooted more broadly than your own, that we are spiritually rootless.

    This probably is condescending, but— Just as most Christians (and other formalistic religionists) might think that my spirituality is rootless, it seems to me that most Christians (and other formalistic religionists) are bound to concept-idolatry. They idolize not only scriptural texts, but also the conceptual content (immediate translation) of their spiritual experiences. They idolize names and words and creeds. I am very careful not to draw the lines too sharply; I really do not presume to know what is going on in other people’s minds. But even Jesus can be turned into an idol; so can the Buddha. It would be simplistic, but not totally out of order, if all my comments on these threads were taken as arguments against idolatry in one form or another.

    As Anthony DeMello put it: “The mystery does not need defending; idols do.” In sense, though I would not want to press this too far, that’s how you can identify them. (And I do not pretend that I am immune; I merely try to be vigilant.)

    I confess that I am frustrated—and so, perhaps, unfair. I’m probably just tired...

    To return to the subject of this debate: the prophecy has been shown to be, at best, equivocal. If that fact is threatening to your faith (whoever is threatened by such things), you are the one who has a problem.

    _________________________________________

    BTW: Since I accept the honesty of Bennett’s citations of peer-reviewed journals, I don’t think they are any reason for complaint. Any more than I think anyone has any reasonable complaint when I cite books that I own. Some works may be more accessible for some people, but they are public record.
  7. Illinois
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    13 Aug '08 20:05
    Originally posted by vistesd
    But isn’t that the point, Epi? Frankly, if all bbarr could show was that such a prophecy is equivocal, then he shows that any faith that is based on such prophecy is itself equivocal. I am not suggesting that is where your own faith is rooted. But if the prophecy depends simply on his hermeneutics versus yours, and neither hermeneutic can be demonstrated ...[text shortened]... ooks that I own. Some works may be more accessible for some people, but they are public record.
    I know from my own experience with the OT that it's extremely difficult to hammer out exactly what a certain passage intends. When someone says, "this prophecy is outright false," I wonder whether they're reading the same Bible. Furthermore, God has a history of making pronouncements against people and nations, prophecies, which have been dropped because of collective repentance. The "situation on the ground" is fluid, but the written word is not. From my perspective, the prophecies against the Egyptians and Phoenicians have been fulfilled, regardless of arguments over the details, since both empires are no more. It's remarkable, then, that the state of Israel has arisen once again after thousands of years of exile (another of Ezekiel's prophecies).

    But I digress...
  8. Donationbbarr
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    14 Aug '08 21:45
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    [b]Right, within the limiting constraints on accurate interpretations of Ezekiel, the prophecies concerning N. in Tyre and Egypt are false. Gerrymander at your own risk.

    Give me a break. You're basing your conclusion that Ezekiel's prophecies concerning Nebuchadnezzar are false on nothing more than an interpretation you happen to be most f ...[text shortened]... n't compete with your peer-review journals and the like. You make a convincing case, sir.[/b]
    Look, I'm sorry if I offended you. I respect you and the way you debate. But if you think I'm basing my conclusions here on fondness, then you haven't been paying attention. I've given either historical or textual reasons here for my interpretations and the inferences to which they give rise. Honestly, I could not care less that you would prefer I approach this topic tentatively rather than authoritatively. I think my evidence, taken together, yields a fairly authoritative refutation of certain prophecies in Ezekiel. I know that you disagree, but convincing one's antagonist is not, fortunately, criterial to successful debate. In any case, I'm done with this topic. Thanks for an enjoyable debate!
  9. Hmmm . . .
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    15 Aug '08 07:07
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    I know from my own experience with the OT that it's extremely difficult to hammer out exactly what a certain passage intends. When someone says, "this prophecy is outright false," I wonder whether they're reading the same Bible. Furthermore, God has a history of making pronouncements against people and nations, prophecies, which have been dropped becau ...[text shortened]... after thousands of years of exile (another of Ezekiel's prophecies).

    But I digress...
    But does this really say anything more than that the territory can be adjusted sufficiently to make the map come out right because we want to believe the map? Now you are certainly correct: the territory is fluid; an already written map is no longer fluid. Nevertheless, it is the map that needs to be tested against the territory, not the other way around. And if the territory changes, one needs a new map, not a bulldozer.

    In this case, the territory is the actual unfolding of history. But I am also talking of the spiritual and existential territory in which and of which we are.

    Now, to use the phrases I have been using for a long time: the map is an ikon of the territory. It is really ludicrous to insist on even possible changes in the territory in order to defend the (once, if at all) accuracy of the map.

    The Biblical texts are not the territory; neither are the Upanishads, for that matter. The territory in this case (you understand my metaphors here, I am sure) is prior to every map—every name, idea, concept, word that has ever been spoken or written about the territory. Whenever such things are taken as anything more than ikons of the territory, they become idolatrous.

    Jesus for example, I believe, was in contact with the territory. He expressed that in such iconographic phrases as, “The father and I are one.” He used the language of his culture as best he could to point to the territory, and our place in and of it. Now, because the territory is also existential, and includes us, his map (like that of the Buddha, or Lin Chi, for example) included himself in his own existence. And so the mapmaker also can become idolized as part of the map.

    Now, this “mapmaking’ is part of the natural operation of our consciousness, and can begin immediately and spontaneously when we are in contact with the territory (in which and of which we also are). And when that happens, we may also draw spontaneously on the work of previous mapmakers, even those of whom we are fairly dimly aware (which is why someone steeped in a culture of Christian maps may not necessarily have aspects of just those maps leap into his/her mind at the moment of spontaneous translation).

    What happens when those maps are religiously dogmatized is that they become both substitutes for the territory, and the gridworks by which the territory (and one’s unique experience of it) are judged. “Salvation”, however one understands that term, no longer is taken to depend on contact with the territory as it is, but on whether or not one adheres to the “proper” map.

    In the end, one’s faith is vested either in the territory which precedes all our attempts to map it (all our thoughts, concepts, ideas and words about it; and all those who have drawn maps before us)—or one’s faith is vested in a map, one’s own or one borrowed.

    This is not to say that such maps are useless. But any map likely has errors, and no map captures all the details of the territory (the only complete “map” of the territory is the territory itself, which is wonderfully dynamic and varied). If one has been able to use a given map to become immersed in the territory, the thing to do is to put the map down and wander the territory for oneself. Until one can claim that one has covered the whole territory however, one cannot reasonably claim that one’s particular map is the only right one, or even the most right one—and certainly not that it is an errorless one. And since the territory is nigh on infinite, one can never really make such a claim.

    And why would anyone want to anyway? Why should anyone spend their time doing “apologetics” for their map? Well, I suspect there are different reasons, and so I do not accuse anyone of any particular reason. But, in the end, I suspect it has something to do with the fact that a map has definite markings, boundaries, and gridlines—and the territory has none of these. Every concept, idea, word, name that we use to try to “eff” the ineffable are ours—or those of folks who have tried before us. That does not make the ineffable really more effable—it does not mean that the territory must conform to any of our mapmaking efforts. That does not mean that the ineffable carries in itself any of the names we may give it—God, Brahman, Christos, Shiva, Tao—or that it is limited by the ideas and concepts and images that underlie such names.

    I do not judge the Christian map harshly—as a map. Mostly, the arguments that I enter into about it have to with what I might consider as mis-readings of that map (and I might be correct or incorrect in my readings); but I also do not assume that it is necessarily the “best” map, let alone the only “right” map. My only concern with any map is whether or not it is helpful—for this person or that person—as a guide into the territory. The same maps are not always helpful for all persons in that regard.

    The territory has no gridlines—except those that we assign; and, again, that is to be expected and recognized because the territory includes us and our mapmaking consciousness. I am a unique expression of the territory, as are you.

    When it comes right down to it, I don’t really give more of a fig for Buddhist maps than I do for Christian maps. I have a whole collection of maps. I can either use (any of) them to guide me back to the territory, or not. What I don’t want to do is waste my time defending (or insisting upon) this map over that one.

    The precedent territory is ultimately ineffable; the subsequent maps are not. Maybe it seems safer not to wander off the edge of the map. But the map is not the territory. I only use maps as ikons: I do not try to limit the territory to what is described on any (set of) map(s)—whoever does so, and for whatever reasons they might do so, has made the map more than ikon... Nor do I pretend to limit the territory to the bounds of my experience of it...
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    16 Aug '08 05:30
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I've asked this question deep into a thread, but I didn't get any answers. So I try again in a separate thread: again

    [b]What is the definition of a christian? What is the least denominator?
    [/b]
    Christian, means Christ like.

    All the groups of chriatanity is man's doing, not God's. It's simple Read the bible and try your best to live it. Labels came from man.
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    16 Aug '08 05:32
    Originally posted by realeyez
    Christian, means Christ like.

    All the groups of chriatanity is man's doing, not God's. It's simple Read the bible and try your best to live it. Labels came from man.
    Thank you for the answer.
    This might be a definition of a christian, but at the same time the definition of every religious group (if you swithc the word 'bible' to their respective holy book).
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    26 Jun '09 20:13
    That's the problem everyone has there own bible.
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