Originally posted by robbie carrobieAs I indicated yesterday, I rarely use the word "cult" because, to my way of thinking, it is a damaged [i.e. irredeemably subjective] word that's used to express a gut feeling about a given group that is perceived negatively.
If we are going to make assertions about what constitutes a cult then surely it is entirely logical to define what we mean by a cult.
When I think of people who might be perceived as "victims" of a cult - where that word is used - then I am assuming that what is under scrutiny [or criticism] is how their intellectual faculties and, sometimes, their integrity, are distorted or truncated in some way by the demands of conforming to their group's doctrine, and the degree to which this distances them from what I see as common sense.
Like I said before, I think it's about [1] their dogma, [2] their carefully cultivated and self-reinforcing sense of "otherness" and exceptionalism, and [3] the resulting intellectual and interpersonal behavior.
So this what I think people MEAN when they use the word "cult" and what group characteristics and member attributes they may be referring to when they use the word.
02 Feb 13
Originally posted by FMFIts not about you nor about any reservations you may have about using or defining the term.
As I indicated yesterday, I rarely use the word "cult" because, to my way of thinking, it is a damaged [i.e. irredeemably subjective] word that's used to express a gut feeling about a given group that is perceived negatively.
When I think of people who might be perceived as "victims" of a cult - where that word is used - then I am assuming that what is under ...[text shortened]... d member attributes are that I think they may be referring to when they use the word.
02 Feb 13
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieWell, of course, I talked about much more than just "reservations" caused by the subjectivity of the word. That was in the first line of my post; did you not read the rest of the post? What is your response to my observations on how the word is used, what people mean by it, and what phenomena it refers to?
Its not about you nor about any reservations you may have about using or defining the term.
02 Feb 13
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I would like to propose that secrecy is a defining criteria of a cult, typical being the example of the Order of the solar temple, who committed murder as well as mass ritual suicide. There are of course many other examples of secrecy.
A few days later, Di Mambro and twelve followers performed a ritual Last Supper. A few days after that, apparent mass suicides and murders were conducted at Cheiry and Salvan, two villages in Western Switzerland, and at Morin Heights — 15 inner circle members committed suicide with poison, 30 were killed by bullets or smothering, and 8 others were killed by other causes. In Switzerland, many of the victims were found in a secret underground chapel lined with mirrors and other items of Templar symbolism
source wikipedia
02 Feb 13
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI think "secrecy" could well be an attribute of a group that could cause someone to describe it as a "cult" but I do not think it is a "defining criterion". Someone could perceive a group to be a "cult" without "secrecy" being the reason for disapproving of it.
I would like to propose that secrecy is a defining criteria of a cult
02 Feb 13
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Originally posted by FMFagain i am uninterested what people perceive, its not about peoples perceptions of the term cult, its about defining it.
I think "secrecy" could well be an attribute of a group that could cause someone to describe it as a "cult" but I do not think it is a "defining criterion". Someone could perceive a group to be a "cult" without "secrecy" being the reason for disapproving of it.
02 Feb 13
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAll words are about perceptions to some degree, robbie: something is perceived, and a word is coined. Sometimes everyone shares the perception so the word attached is not contentious in any significant way, although synonyms could add nuances that reflect slightly differing perceptions. Some words are laden with perception and even judgment, especially words like "cult", "terrorist", "bludger" etc.
again i am uninterested what people perceive, its not about peoples perceptions of the term cult.
02 Feb 13
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Originally posted by FMFwhatever. If I need to look up nuances I will consult a thesaurus. If I want to play word games i will go to the general forum. Thanks anyway.
All words are about perceptions to some degree, robbie: something is perceived, and a word is coined. Sometimes everyone shares the perception so the word attached is not contentious in any significant way, although synonyms could add nuances that reflect slightly differing perceptions. Some words are laden with perception and even judgment, especially words like "cult", "terrorist", "bludger" etc.
02 Feb 13
Originally posted by robbie carrobiePeople use words to describe what they perceive, robbie. The only way to define a contentious and subjective word like "cult" is to examine the way people use it. The words "denomination" and "group" are not laden with any subjective perceptions so they are defined in a rather more straight forward way. On the other hand, with the word "cult" one has to examine what perception is being expressed by the people who use it.
again i am uninterested what people perceive, its not about peoples perceptions of the term cult, its about defining it.
02 Feb 13
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Originally posted by FMFyes you have said that already. twice now. Now perhaps you have some examples of secrecy in cults? Or some reasons why secrecy is not a defining criteria of a cult?
People use words to describe what they perceive, robbie. The only way to define a contentious and subjective word like "cult" is to examine the way people use it. The words "denomination" and "group" are not laden with any subjective perceptions so they are defined in a rather more straight forward way. On the other hand, with the word "cult" one has to examine what perception is being expressed by the people who use it.
02 Feb 13
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt's not about "word games" robbie.
whatever. If I need to look up nuances I will consult a thesaurus. If I want to play word games i will go to the general forum. Thanks anyway.
I am starting to wonder if you are pretending not to understand the points I am making because you disagree with them and simply don't want to address them.
Here, I will have a go at distilling what I have been saying:
"Cult", noun: a subjective term used to refer to a group about which the user of the word disapproves or is sceptical. This critical view is rooted in what is seen as the group's tendency to set itself apart, which it does through the development of a shared dogma [which the user of the word does not share] and by cultivating a shared sense of exceptionalism [which the user of the word does not approve of]. The word "cult" is commonly used to describe groups who are perceived as engaging in intellectual and interpersonal behaviour that seeks to protect the group and the groupist spirit from all that is outside the group. These outside entities and perceptions are seen as almost invariably threatening and hostile, and this perceived hostility very often serves to reaffirm the members' sense of exceptionalism.
02 Feb 13
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI think people use the word "cult" to describe groups even where "secrecy" is not a factor in their disapproval of that group.
yes you have said that already. twice now. Now perhaps you have some examples of secrecy in cults? Or some reasons why secrecy is not a defining criteria of a cult?
02 Feb 13
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFthis is elementary and provides nothing new and is not particularly revealing nor interesting, although it does intimate a certain degree of secrecy.
It's not about "word games" robbie.
I am starting to wonder if you are pretending not to understand the points I am making because you disagree with them and simply don't want to address them.
Here, I will have a go at distilling what I have been saying:
"Cult", noun: a subjective term used to refer to a group about which the user of the word disappro erceived hostility very often serves to reaffirm the members' sense of exceptionalism.