Spirituality
12 Dec 05
12 Dec 05
I may have asked this before, but I couldn't find it. Apologies if I have.
My question, to the various people who believe in afterlives of whatever brand, is about hell.
Assuming there is such a place, are there varying degrees of punishment in hell?
For example, does a person who lived a reasonable life, comitted some sins etc etc, but just doesn't quite come up to the mark for entry to heaven, get the same treatment in hell as a mass-murderer, Hitler or whoever?
Or once you're there, is everyone treated the same?
Ditto heaven - is there a single standard of treatment in heaven, or do people who've lived particularly pious lives get an 'upgrade'?
12 Dec 05
Originally posted by RedmikeYes and no. It depends on which religion you follow.
I may have asked this before, but I couldn't find it. Apologies if I have.
My question, to the various people who believe in afterlives of whatever brand, is about hell.
Assuming there is such a place, are there varying degrees of punishment in hell?
For example, does a person who lived a reasonable life, comitted some sins etc etc, but just doesn ...[text shortened]... of treatment in heaven, or do people who've lived particularly pious lives get an 'upgrade'?
Some have levels, some just have one with varying punishments for the varying sins.
Some punish the believers and allow them into heaven when they've served their time, with eternal damnation for the non-believers.
It really depends on who you ask.
12 Dec 05
Originally posted by RedmikeA man died, went to Hell, and was confronted by Satan.
I may have asked this before, but I couldn't find it. Apologies if I have.
My question, to the various people who believe in afterlives of whatever brand, is about hell.
Assuming there is such a place, are there varying degrees of punishment in hell?
"You know, it's not all bad down here. You do get a choice of how you'd like to spend the rest of your death. I'll show you three doors, behind which are three punishments you will endure for all eternity. You can choose your own punishment out of those three" said Satan.
"Well that doesn't sound too bad" said the man. "Let's have a look inside these three rooms".
Satan unlocks the door to the first room. It is filled with billions of souls, screaming in agony... they are doomed to watch endless repeats of 'Joey'.
"Don't much like the look of that one.... how about the next room?"
Satan moves along to the next room, unlocks the door, and shows the man inside. Punishment seemed to involve a gerbil, a length of plastic tubing, and a gimp suit. The man didn't like the idea of this, so asked to be shown the third room.
Inside, the room is contains a dozen or so people sipping tea from a cup and saucer, up to their neck in foul smelling cattle slurry. "Well, this doesn't seem too bad. Smells a bit, but I'd probably get used to that after a week or two. At least I can have a nice drink, and get to know the rest of the people in here. Might get quite cosy and chatty after a while. Yes, I'll think I'll go in here."
Satan prods the man into the sh!t-pit with with his trident. Before he locks the door agin, he turns rouond and barks out a command. "Right then you lot... that's your tea-break finished for this millenium. Get back on your heads."
13 Dec 05
1 edit
Originally posted by RedmikeYes, according to the scripture there are multiple levels of Heaven and hell.
I may have asked this before, but I couldn't find it. Apologies if I have.
My question, to the various people who believe in afterlives of whatever brand, is about hell.
Assuming there is such a place, are there varying degrees of punishment in hell?
For example, does a person who lived a reasonable life, comitted some sins etc etc, but just doesn ...[text shortened]... of treatment in heaven, or do people who've lived particularly pious lives get an 'upgrade'?
Psalm 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
It is also true that hell is just to repay a souls unforgiven debt. After the debt is paid the soul is released again.
A number of authors in the Bible talk about this including Jesus as quoted by Matthew.
13 Dec 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressDo the Catholics agree with this? I have never heard of this idea. I thought hell was eternal. According to your theory, everybody ultimately ends up in heaven, correct? Further, I thought Jesus' death paid for the debt of all souls. Doesn't it follow that nobody goes to hell in the first place?
It is also true that hell is just to repay a souls unforgiven debt. After the debt is paid the soul is released again.
13 Dec 05
5 edits
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesDo the Catholics agree with this? I have never heard of this idea. I thought hell was eternal.
Do the Catholics agree with this? I have never heard of this idea. I thought hell was eternal. According to your theory, everybody ultimately ends up in heaven, correct? Further, I thought Jesus' death paid for the debt of all souls. Doesn't it follow that nobody goes to hell in the first place?[/b]
Most Christian church's do not accept this, but some do. The churches position on eternal hell and torment comes from the old Byzantine “horrible judge” image of Jesus. The church managed to keep its power for a very long time by scaring people with eternal hell, kind of like what BF101 does.
According to your theory, everybody ultimately ends up in heaven, correct?
Yes. This is the only possible outcome. Edit: Also, it's not just my theory.
Further, I thought Jesus' death paid for the debt of all souls. Doesn't it follow that nobody goes to hell in the first place?
The Christ continues to save the world to this day and won’t stop until all are saved. The Bible makes it clear that God sent the Christ to earth to save everybody, and it also makes it clear that this will happen in the end.
Some learn the hard way. Some go through hell. In order to receive God it is necessary to accept God. The Bible is clear on this point as well, but the Bible also clearly says that hell can be avoided all together by accepting God and asking for forgiveness. We are all God’s children and no parent stays mad at their children forever.
The church has no adequate answers to all the obvious contradictions that eternal punishment in hell poses.
13 Dec 05
Originally posted by The Chess ExpressWhat do you do with the book of Jude? Specifically, verses 4 through 16, and more specifically the part in bold?
The Christ continues to save the world to this day and won’t stop until all are saved. The Bible makes it clear that God sent the Christ to earth to save everybody, and it also makes it clear that this will happen in the end.
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.
Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.
These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
13 Dec 05
Originally posted by RedmikeHeaven does have at least one suburb, so why not Hell?
I may have asked this before, but I couldn't find it. Apologies if I have.
My question, to the various people who believe in afterlives of whatever brand, is about hell.
Assuming there is such a place, are there varying degrees of punishment in hell?
For example, does a person who lived a reasonable life, comitted some sins etc etc, but just doesn ...[text shortened]... of treatment in heaven, or do people who've lived particularly pious lives get an 'upgrade'?
13 Dec 05
8 edits
Originally posted by joelekWhat do you do with the book of Jude? Specifically, verses 4 through 16, and more specifically the part in bold?
What do you do with the book of Jude? Specifically, verses 4 through 16, and more specifically the part in bold?
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
Though y ...[text shortened]... ir own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.[/b]
[/b]Well, for starters I refer to the KJV of the Bible so that I have an idea of what the author is trying to say.
4. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
This interpretation changes the original meaning of the verse.
Accoding to the KJV
Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
These ungodly men were men who were judged by God to be sinful in sexual matters. What exactly are men “who were before of old ordained to this condemnation”? For all we know these could be demons in human form.
Lasciviousness
1. lewd: showing a desire for, or unseemly interest in, sex
2. erotic: provoking or exciting lust
Encarta ® World English Dictionary
Lasciviousness has to do with sex. These men that St Jude writes about are the porn king superstars.
5. Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
6. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
7. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
8. In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings.
9. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
10. Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.
11. Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.
12. These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead.
13. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
14. Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones
15. to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
Again, the meaning of verse 15 has been changed. This is how the verse reads.
Jude 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against them.
According to this verse, God convinces the ungodly, not convicts them. This can mean one of a few things.
A. It could mean that the demon imposters are judged and the wicked are convinced that God is their Lord.
B. It could mean that the porn stars are not really demons, but that God will convince them through his judgment. Consider what this means. If a soul could be lost forever, why would God try to convince them of anything? This supports the theory that hell just burns off sins, and then the soul is released.
C. It could mean something else that I’m not getting.
16. These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.[/i]
Going back to verse 13. “for whom blackest darkness has been reserved for ever”
Compare this verse to Rev 14:11.
The "for ever and ever" of Rev. 14:11 is actually a mistranslation of the Greek aions kai aions. Aion (pronounced ay-on), literally meaning an age or a finite time segment. It is often mistranslated eternal or for ever.
If the singular form aion is translated eternal (unending), then how are we to understand its plural form, aions? Would aions be successive eternities? That would be ridiculous. In Rev. 14:11 the Greek aions of the aions is translated for ever and ever. Can one eternal period of time follow after another? Of course not! This makes no sense.
Revelation 11:15 says of Jesus, ...He shall reign for ever and ever.
Yet I Cor. 15:24-25 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
Here we see that God’s word is divine enough to be self correcting. St Paul understood that Christ would reign until he had put all enemies under his feet. Literally the word declares, "He shall reign unto the ages of ages." An age is a limited period of time. Many ages are still just several limited periods.
This is why Jesus came into the world.
John 3:17 For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. (NKJ)
1 Cor. 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn...
This is what is going to happen.
Isa. 55:11. so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Phil. 1:6. He will finish the work that He has begun. Phil. 1:6.
God’s will WLL BE DONE.
This is what the end is going to be.
I Tim 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior. 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Rom. 14:11 It is written: `As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'
I Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Can you imagine this scenario?
Jesus holding a child in Heaven
Jesus: Little child, God is good. Praise God and give thanks for you are here with me in Heaven!
Child: Jesus, where are my mother and my brother?
Jesus: Behold, there are your mother and your brother burning in hell...forever. See how they wail and suffer. Your mother sinned too much, and your brother left the faith. No, I can never forgive them and release them from their agony.
Come on man! Do you honestly think that this scenario is ever going to happen?
Jesus specifically says in Matt 18:23-35 that hell is not forever. It is just to burn off our unforgiven sins.
Matt 18:34 And his Lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormenters, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
13 Dec 05
OK - seems most people seem to accept that there are degrees of hell. I was brought up a catholic, so there was no such idea - hell was hell, and it was forever - better get that homework done now, or you could be there tomorrow.
Does the same apply to heaven? Is it worth busting a gut to be as pious as possible, or does just making the cut get the same priveleges?
I know nobody is sure exactly what the entry criteria are (like a night club with a variable dress code), but are there degrees of heaven?