destiny vs free will

Originally posted by Fleabitten
You're right in that, for all intents and purposes, it's an infinite number of outcomes. Or, at the very least, a number of outcomes so large that our own intellects couldn't comprehend them all. But if we're speaking of an omniscient diety, then I'm not averse to thinking He does possess the capacity take it all into account.

yes.. okay... i give you that

Originally posted by Fleabitten
Think about it this way: In the game of roulette, you can bet the colors red or black. Let's say you bet on red. If red comes up, you win. If black comes up, you lose. You know the possible outcomes before the action is decided. But you knowing these outcomes does not interfere with how the ball will bounce. The bounce of the ball is independent of your knowledge.

But the fact that you know the outcome does mean that the outcome is fixed and only one outcome is possible. Your knowledge of the outcome does not cause this but does confirm it. However it is really indistinguishable from knowing the outcome after the event happens.
The only issue I have with the concept of God knowing the future is it places the responsibility of all outcomes on him as he was aware of the outcomes at the point of creation thus he is responsible for them.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But the fact that you know the outcome does mean that the outcome is fixed and only one outcome is possible. Your knowledge of the outcome does not cause this but does confirm it. However it is really indistinguishable from knowing the outcome after the event happens.
The only issue I have with the concept of God knowing the future is it places the respo ...[text shortened]... on him as he was aware of the outcomes at the point of creation thus he is responsible for them.

But in the roulette scenario above, I don't know the outcome beforehand, so I'm not sure how it can be fixed or pre-determined. I know the range of possible outcomes. And I know the ramifications of each possiblity. But it is an agent independent of my knowledge (i.e. the bounce of the ball) that determines the outcome without my interference.

Originally posted by Fleabitten
But in the roulette scenario above, I don't know the outcome beforehand, so I'm not sure how it can be fixed or pre-determined. I know the range of possible outcomes. And I know the ramifications of each possiblity. But it is an agent independent of my knowledge (i.e. the bounce of the ball) that determines the outcome without my interference.

Let us assume the game is over and the result was black. Does your new knowledge that the result is black cause the result to be black? Can the result be red? No. It was predestined to be black whether you knew it or not. Knowing it beforehand or after is not the cause.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Let us assume the game is over and the result was black. Does your new knowledge that the result is black cause the result to be black? Can the result be red? No. It was predestined to be black whether you knew it or not. Knowing it beforehand or after is not the cause.

I'm not trying to be dense or obtuse here, but explain to me how the outcome can be pre-determined if it's an independent agent acting randomly that brings about the outcome (from a range of equally possible outcomes). I don't see how the fact that the result was black means that it 'had' to be black before the ball started bouncing.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Theists often try to solve that by claiming that God is outside time and thus somehow manages to bypass that particular problem.
However it is not necessary at all to invoke Gods knowledge for the same apparent paradox to become apparent. Basically, whatever choices you are going to make, you will always pick one and only one outcome and thus that outcome could be said to be the only choice you could make.

So you don't really believe we have free will then? What are you saying? If you think God knows in advance what we are going to do then the only way he could do that would be if our actions are entirely predictable , if not then he would HAVE to be outside of time to achieve this which...erm..would contradict what you are saying here.


BTW- Would a God who is trapped in time like us be worth knowing?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Let us assume the game is over and the result was black. Does your new knowledge that the result is black cause the result to be black? Can the result be red? No. It was predestined to be black whether you knew it or not. Knowing it beforehand or after is not the cause.

But does the fact that it was black mean that it could never have been red ?

Originally posted by knightmeister
But does the fact that it was black mean that it could never have been red ?

we can never know!

Originally posted by eatmybishop
we can never know!

Exactly , the fact that it was black does not exclude the possibility that it could have been red . Therefore , God knows what you are doing in the future and it does not logically prove that that was all that you could have done. If you choose to do A then he will know A , if you choose to do B then he will know B and so on ...BUT ...you have to choose one timeline and whatever timeline you walk he will know it. But this does not exclude the other timelines , it does not prove it either way , thus it does not follow that God knowing our timeline excludes us having free will.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Exactly , the fact that it was black does not exclude the possibility that it could have been red . Therefore , God knows what you are doing in the future and it does not logically prove that that was all that you could have done. If you choose to do A then he will know A , if you choose to do B then he will know B and so on ...BUT ...you have to choos ...[text shortened]... ither way , thus it does not follow that God knowing our timeline excludes us having free will.

with all respect, i think you're playing with words simply to find an answer to a question that can only be answered one of two ways, either we have free will or god knows the future... there can be no contradiction, no clever words, it is a simple question that calls for a simple answer

Originally posted by rwingett
It does if you created me, and knew that I would eventually post it.

But you would have to write the post first (via free will) in order for him to know that that was what you infact did. If you didn't post it then he wouldn't know.

Originally posted by eatmybishop
with all respect, i think you're playing with words simply to find an answer to a question that can only be answered one of two ways, either we have free will or god knows the future... there can be no contradiction, no clever words, it is a simple question that calls for a simple answer

If you want simple answers then you might like to try kindergarten theology in the kiddies section...but back in the real world...

The "simple" answer is that God does not know the future until it is set as a timeline. He is omnipresent to all points in time. This means that what you are doing tomorrow he is there , just as he is there watching you now.

So he knows what you are going to do tomorrow , but "in advance" isn't how he knows. To him it's already happened. He's not waiting for you to clean your teeth at 8.01am , he's already seen it happen. The thing is you can change your mind and clean your teeth at 8.30 , but if you do God will see that instead and that would be your future.

There are 100's of things you could do at 8.01am tomorrow but you can only do ONE thing. And whatever that ONE thing is that you do will then become your future and will God will know it because you do it. Whether it's a free action or not is irrelevant because God will know it . The simple fact of him knowing it doesn't prove anything other than God is not stuck on a timeline like us waiting or predicting things.

Originally posted by Big Mac
I am a Christian Theist. I agree with you. There is no Free Will, except that of God. Only He has free will. Only He knows all things and orchestrates all things.
We simply (or complicatedly) seem to have free will, but, as you said, if our choices are known in advance, we really couldn't choose any other possibility.

Don't you see your mistake? You keep using this phrase "in advance" as if God is walking along a timeline with you . He's not. He knows nothing "in advance" he knows every choice you will make AFTER you have made it.

Here's a way of looking at it. Imagine I have a time machine. Now , I travel in time into tomorrow and watch your day unfold. I see you trip over into a bush because you chose to run for a bus (you live don't worry) . How do I know this? Because I can see you making decisions in front of me. You can do what you like and I'll be sitting there in my time machine watching you. BUT....BUT...I need you to make choices still in order for me to know what you decide. UNLESS you decide to run for that bus I will never see you trip into the bush.

Now , I travel back in time to you again. I now know what you will decide to do tomorrow. BUT...BUT..I don't know "in advance" because my knowledge is not "in advance" . I had to be there to watch and wait for you to choose to know it. If you don't choose to run I can never see you trip over. If I had no time machine then the only way I could know would be if your choice was inevitable , but I am not restricted by time. In a sense my knowledge of you tripping over is really POST knowledge of something that has happened , it's just that I can carry that info back into the past with me.

What you need to think about (and everyone else) is whether simply by me travelling to your future this means that only one future was ever possible. You see time machine or no time machine , you will decide something tomorrow.You will have a future one way or another. So in real terms the future will be set in stone at some point by your decisions. There can be only one timeline but this does not prove that only one timeline is possible because that timeline could be very different depending on your choices. It just means that you can only live one life not two. So you are stuck. Whatever , you choose tomorrow I'm gonna find out via my time machine and then hold that information with me when I come back. So how does me having a time machine mean that you don't have free will? Me having a time machine doesn't prove anything either way because I still need you to make some decisions to make that knowledge real to me. I can't know anything until you do it. You can still have free will.

Now imagine God as one great big time machine standing outside time. He knows nothing in advance. He knows only what you have already chosen. It was you that gave him that knowledge via your free choice.

Any clearer?

Originally posted by eatmybishop
if god knows all things in advance does that not contradict the notion that we are blessed with free will?

No.

Originally posted by rwingett
It does if you created me, and knew that I would eventually post it.

No, just because God created us in no way mandates that he has manipulated our free will. In fact, if God is capable of ANYTHING then he is capable of creating free will in us despite knowing what decisions we will make and despite having created us. That is, of coarse, if he is capable of ANYTHING.

What you invision is a God that is not capable of ANYTHING. The God that you invision is, in fact, not the God of the Bible.