Originally posted by eatmybishopTheists often try to solve that by claiming that God is outside time and thus somehow manages to bypass that particular problem.
if god knows all things in advance does that not contradict the notion that we are blessed with free will?
However it is not necessary at all to invoke Gods knowledge for the same apparent paradox to become apparent. Basically, whatever choices you are going to make, you will always pick one and only one outcome and thus that outcome could be said to be the only choice you could make.
Originally posted by twhiteheadgood get out clause..!
Theists often try to solve that by claiming that God is outside time and thus somehow manages to bypass that particular problem.
However it is not necessary at all to invoke Gods knowledge for the same apparent paradox to become apparent. Basically, whatever choices you are going to make, you will always pick one and only one outcome and thus that outcome could be said to be the only choice you could make.
There is really no distinction between a future that will happen and a future that will happen and that God or anyone else knows about. Knowledge of and event whether prior or post or during does not affect whether or not that event was the only possible way that it could have happened. Theists of course get all muddled up about this and think that this is evidence for magic which they then call a gift from God.
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Originally posted by eatmybishopI am a Christian Theist. I agree with you. There is no Free Will, except that of God. Only He has free will. Only He knows all things and orchestrates all things.
if god knows all things in advance does that not contradict the notion that we are blessed with free will?
We simply (or complicatedly) seem to have free will, but, as you said, if our choices are known in advance, we really couldn't choose any other possibility.
Originally posted by eatmybishopThink about it this way: In the game of roulette, you can bet the colors red or black. Let's say you bet on red. If red comes up, you win. If black comes up, you lose. You know the possible outcomes before the action is decided. But you knowing these outcomes does not interfere with how the ball will bounce. The bounce of the ball is independent of your knowledge. In an analgous vein, perhaps God knows of all the possible outcomes of our actions, but allows us to take those actions independently.
if god knows all things in advance does that not contradict the notion that we are blessed with free will?
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Originally posted by FleabittenIf this is the case, what possible use would He have in His own prophesies recorded in the Bible. He would simply be setting Himself up for failure. I know many think this is the case because they don't believe the Bible, or they think prophesies have not or will not come true. Regardless of that, if we are postulating about free will, let's assume that God is the inspiration for the Bible and that it does contain prophesies, as the Bible itself claims. Why would He do this if He had no way of knowing the future, or at best a 50-50 chance of getting any one postulate right? It seems like an awfully big risk, if we believers are to reference His fulfilled prophesies as proof of His faithfulness. If the future is not certain in the mind of God, then we would really be proving that God is just really smart, lucky, and a really good guesser.
Think about it this way: In the game of roulette, you can bet the colors red or black. Let's say you bet on red. If red comes up, you win. If black comes up, you lose. You know the possible outcomes before the action is decided. But you knowing these outcomes does not interfere with how the ball will bounce. The bounce of the ball is independent of ...[text shortened]... of all the possible outcomes of our actions, but allows us to take those actions independently.
I believe that God is all knowing and sovereign. Therefore, I do not believe that man, the creature has free will.
Originally posted by Big MacI'd like to preface my response to this by admitting right up front that I am not well versed in theology. My answer to the inital post was simply an attempt to illustrate a scenario where knowledge does not imply interference. That said...
If this is the case, what possible use would He have in His own prophesies recorded in the Bible. He would simply be setting Himself up for failure. I know many think this is the case because they don't believe the Bible, or they think prophesies have not or will not come true. Regardless of that, if we are postulating about free will, let's assume that God ...[text shortened]... s all knowing and sovereign. Therefore, I do not believe that man, the creature has free will.
I don't know how one would reconcile the notion of free will with that of the fulfillment of prophesy unless the fulfillment of such prophesy is not contingent upon the actions of mankind. For example, we are told that Christ will return. Isn't this a form of prophesy the fulfillment of which is independent of man's actions? Are there prophecies within the Bible that depend upon the actions of man?
Originally posted by Big Macif we do not have free will like you say, then we are responsible for nothing, and god has a lot of explaining to do
If this is the case, what possible use would He have in His own prophesies recorded in the Bible. He would simply be setting Himself up for failure. I know many think this is the case because they don't believe the Bible, or they think prophesies have not or will not come true. Regardless of that, if we are postulating about free will, let's assume that God ...[text shortened]... s all knowing and sovereign. Therefore, I do not believe that man, the creature has free will.
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Originally posted by Fleabitteni like the idea but with all respect it doesnt quite work, in terms of life, we do not simply lose or win also, one outcome affects another... you are saying if red comes up then this path is taken, but what of the next choice of red and black? and how often do we have these choices? everyday? every minute? strictly speaking these choices should be available for us at every moment otherwise it still isnt free will, therefore, if they are, that's a lot of outcomes from the red or black scenario
Think about it this way: In the game of roulette, you can bet the colors red or black. Let's say you bet on red. If red comes up, you win. If black comes up, you lose. You know the possible outcomes before the action is decided. But you knowing these outcomes does not interfere with how the ball will bounce. The bounce of the ball is independent of ...[text shortened]... of all the possible outcomes of our actions, but allows us to take those actions independently.
Originally posted by eatmybishopYou're right in that, for all intents and purposes, it's an infinite number of outcomes. Or, at the very least, a number of outcomes so large that our own intellects couldn't comprehend them all. But if we're speaking of an omniscient diety, then I'm not averse to thinking He does possess the capacity take it all into account.
i like the idea but with all respect it doesnt quite work, in terms of life, we do not simply lose or win also, one outcome affects another... you are saying if red comes up then this path is taken, but what of the next choice of red and black? and how often do we have these choices? everyday? every minute? strictly speaking these choices should be avail ...[text shortened]... isnt free will, therefore, if they are, that's a lot of outcomes from the red or black scenario
