1. Joined
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    22 May '07 10:461 edit
    if god knows all things in advance does that not contradict the notion that we are blessed with free will?
  2. Cape Town
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    22 May '07 11:51
    Originally posted by eatmybishop
    if god knows all things in advance does that not contradict the notion that we are blessed with free will?
    Theists often try to solve that by claiming that God is outside time and thus somehow manages to bypass that particular problem.
    However it is not necessary at all to invoke Gods knowledge for the same apparent paradox to become apparent. Basically, whatever choices you are going to make, you will always pick one and only one outcome and thus that outcome could be said to be the only choice you could make.
  3. Joined
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    22 May '07 12:51
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Theists often try to solve that by claiming that God is outside time and thus somehow manages to bypass that particular problem.
    However it is not necessary at all to invoke Gods knowledge for the same apparent paradox to become apparent. Basically, whatever choices you are going to make, you will always pick one and only one outcome and thus that outcome could be said to be the only choice you could make.
    good get out clause..!
  4. Cape Town
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    22 May '07 13:34
    There is really no distinction between a future that will happen and a future that will happen and that God or anyone else knows about. Knowledge of and event whether prior or post or during does not affect whether or not that event was the only possible way that it could have happened. Theists of course get all muddled up about this and think that this is evidence for magic which they then call a gift from God.
  5. RDU NC
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    22 May '07 14:231 edit
    Originally posted by eatmybishop
    if god knows all things in advance does that not contradict the notion that we are blessed with free will?
    I am a Christian Theist. I agree with you. There is no Free Will, except that of God. Only He has free will. Only He knows all things and orchestrates all things.
    We simply (or complicatedly) seem to have free will, but, as you said, if our choices are known in advance, we really couldn't choose any other possibility.
  6. Standard memberFleabitten
    Love thy bobblehead
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    22 May '07 14:32
    Originally posted by eatmybishop
    if god knows all things in advance does that not contradict the notion that we are blessed with free will?
    Think about it this way: In the game of roulette, you can bet the colors red or black. Let's say you bet on red. If red comes up, you win. If black comes up, you lose. You know the possible outcomes before the action is decided. But you knowing these outcomes does not interfere with how the ball will bounce. The bounce of the ball is independent of your knowledge. In an analgous vein, perhaps God knows of all the possible outcomes of our actions, but allows us to take those actions independently.
  7. RDU NC
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    22 May '07 14:421 edit
    Originally posted by Fleabitten
    Think about it this way: In the game of roulette, you can bet the colors red or black. Let's say you bet on red. If red comes up, you win. If black comes up, you lose. You know the possible outcomes before the action is decided. But you knowing these outcomes does not interfere with how the ball will bounce. The bounce of the ball is independent of ...[text shortened]... of all the possible outcomes of our actions, but allows us to take those actions independently.
    If this is the case, what possible use would He have in His own prophesies recorded in the Bible. He would simply be setting Himself up for failure. I know many think this is the case because they don't believe the Bible, or they think prophesies have not or will not come true. Regardless of that, if we are postulating about free will, let's assume that God is the inspiration for the Bible and that it does contain prophesies, as the Bible itself claims. Why would He do this if He had no way of knowing the future, or at best a 50-50 chance of getting any one postulate right? It seems like an awfully big risk, if we believers are to reference His fulfilled prophesies as proof of His faithfulness. If the future is not certain in the mind of God, then we would really be proving that God is just really smart, lucky, and a really good guesser.
    I believe that God is all knowing and sovereign. Therefore, I do not believe that man, the creature has free will.
  8. Standard memberKellyJayonline
    Walk your Faith
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    22 May '07 14:46
    Originally posted by eatmybishop
    if god knows all things in advance does that not contradict the notion that we are blessed with free will?
    Can you draw a square circle no matter how good an artist you are?
    Kelly
  9. Standard memberFleabitten
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    22 May '07 14:50
    Originally posted by Big Mac
    If this is the case, what possible use would He have in His own prophesies recorded in the Bible. He would simply be setting Himself up for failure. I know many think this is the case because they don't believe the Bible, or they think prophesies have not or will not come true. Regardless of that, if we are postulating about free will, let's assume that God ...[text shortened]... s all knowing and sovereign. Therefore, I do not believe that man, the creature has free will.
    I'd like to preface my response to this by admitting right up front that I am not well versed in theology. My answer to the inital post was simply an attempt to illustrate a scenario where knowledge does not imply interference. That said...

    I don't know how one would reconcile the notion of free will with that of the fulfillment of prophesy unless the fulfillment of such prophesy is not contingent upon the actions of mankind. For example, we are told that Christ will return. Isn't this a form of prophesy the fulfillment of which is independent of man's actions? Are there prophecies within the Bible that depend upon the actions of man?
  10. Joined
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    22 May '07 16:43
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Can you draw a square circle no matter how good an artist you are?
    Kelly
    i have no idea what relevance that plays in the discussion
  11. Joined
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    22 May '07 16:44
    Originally posted by Big Mac
    If this is the case, what possible use would He have in His own prophesies recorded in the Bible. He would simply be setting Himself up for failure. I know many think this is the case because they don't believe the Bible, or they think prophesies have not or will not come true. Regardless of that, if we are postulating about free will, let's assume that God ...[text shortened]... s all knowing and sovereign. Therefore, I do not believe that man, the creature has free will.
    if we do not have free will like you say, then we are responsible for nothing, and god has a lot of explaining to do
  12. Joined
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    22 May '07 16:481 edit
    Originally posted by Fleabitten
    Think about it this way: In the game of roulette, you can bet the colors red or black. Let's say you bet on red. If red comes up, you win. If black comes up, you lose. You know the possible outcomes before the action is decided. But you knowing these outcomes does not interfere with how the ball will bounce. The bounce of the ball is independent of ...[text shortened]... of all the possible outcomes of our actions, but allows us to take those actions independently.
    i like the idea but with all respect it doesnt quite work, in terms of life, we do not simply lose or win also, one outcome affects another... you are saying if red comes up then this path is taken, but what of the next choice of red and black? and how often do we have these choices? everyday? every minute? strictly speaking these choices should be available for us at every moment otherwise it still isnt free will, therefore, if they are, that's a lot of outcomes from the red or black scenario
  13. Standard memberFleabitten
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    22 May '07 17:03
    Originally posted by eatmybishop
    i like the idea but with all respect it doesnt quite work, in terms of life, we do not simply lose or win also, one outcome affects another... you are saying if red comes up then this path is taken, but what of the next choice of red and black? and how often do we have these choices? everyday? every minute? strictly speaking these choices should be avail ...[text shortened]... isnt free will, therefore, if they are, that's a lot of outcomes from the red or black scenario
    You're right in that, for all intents and purposes, it's an infinite number of outcomes. Or, at the very least, a number of outcomes so large that our own intellects couldn't comprehend them all. But if we're speaking of an omniscient diety, then I'm not averse to thinking He does possess the capacity take it all into account.
  14. Joined
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    22 May '07 17:28
    Originally posted by eatmybishop
    if god knows all things in advance does that not contradict the notion that we are blessed with free will?
    So if I knew that you were going to post this for some reason does it mean that I caused you to post it?
  15. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    22 May '07 17:53
    Originally posted by whodey
    So if I knew that you were going to post this for some reason does it mean that I caused you to post it?
    It does if you created me, and knew that I would eventually post it.
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